Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[dadeechi]

That's interesting, I thought when they settled on the MK1A and nixed the whole MK2 idea, we were gonna start churning out MK1A's to phase out all the old MiG 21s & 27s.

So I assume the 2nd LWF is to plug the gaps until LCA is ready for mass production?

Yes. the Specs for MK1A were agreed upon but need help from SAAB / Dassault to make it happen.

 

[jha]

pretty much close but dont forget to include or write off jags and bisons just yet maybe bisons but not the jags but 200 f16s i like that i was trying to play it safe but lets see what happens

Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.

 

[#hydra#]

Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
And india has already purchased these fixed costs.

A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.


You're right !

I think it's a politic and diplomatic gesticulation.

Politic : to put pressure on HAL (and on Dassault !)

Diplomatic : we never know, if SAAB or LM make a wonderfull and very cheap deal ....

Just to please uncle Sam,I m not seeing any other justification for it.

 

[Taygibay]

There would have been no need for second MRCA.

Exactly, that's the whole point, congrats!
First, Rafale is MMRCA not MRCA. In essence, by hiking to the M2 definition,
GoI excluded smaller fighters which had less / little chance/s to overcome, the
idea being to protect LCA where L stands for Light.

In turn, the still unfounded rumour of an LWF MII acquisition does go head to
head with Tejas production : a communicating vessels kinda thing. ( L still standing for Light )

Thus, while the LFW option seems to be a cure for Rafale's costs being too high,
it actually threatens a product line that is already MII so that ...


Case 1 : you are right and India doesn't buy anymore of these luxury French items /
. . . . . in which case buying those 36/54 in the first place was borderline stupid;

Case 2 : you are still right and MII goes to F-16 or Gripen, effectively closing LCA /
. . . . . in which case the Tejas program must be termed a failure for Indian MIC;

Case 3 : someone else is right, the LWF MII is not for real, Rafale MII happens /
. . . . . in which case, GoI / IAF-IN balance Raffys vs Tejas according to need and
performances with both of these programs competing for orders.


Contrary to what many accused me of, I favour the last option as the only one under
which India does not invoke stupidity or failure in its decision process.

But that's blabber from an outsider and you can choose either case 1 or 2 for your land.
It's your prerogative as Bobby Brown would say. Bad choices are a very personal thing?

Good day to you, Tay.


P.S. At Dadeechi, that was a pure pun, mate ... using the photograph's stamp as an excuse
to show one more Tiger Meet Rafale as their namesake fits India. Here, have one more :

 

[GURU DUTT]

Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.

no FGFA/PAKFA wont come before 2025 or even 2030 at least

 

[Dem!god]

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



It would be like the below

View attachment 345982

Thats not the case bro, moreover government can't socialize losses to people and profit to any private company,. It's taxpayers money not DM money. Opposition and CAG will tear BJP down.
The only reason for abandoning the original MMRCA was the very steep rise in price of Rafael over what originally predicted by the ministry. Now we are looking for cheaper alternative like F16 grippen etc. Speaks volume of planning and execution by ministry of defence. Only real solution for these problems can be LCA and AMCA . But if F16 deal is done, I believe, AMCA will not see the light of the day and will die due to lack of funds.

 

[Agent_47]

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



It would be like the below

View attachment 345982

• There is no additional MKI orders, IAF chief said it multiple times.
• LCA/Gripen ! really ?. Its LCA Mk1 40 + LCA MK1A 80 (Already ordered)
• 9 sqd of Upgraded Mig29/M2000/jaugars, It will be replaced by AMCA after 2030 (im quoting IAF chief again)
• Get a grip dude, 200 F-16s! That too by 2024?

Stop living in parallel universe and when making assumptions quote official sources.

Please check my earlier post -> https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...-gripen-any-other.448850/page-11#post-8788834

 

[BON PLAN]

Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.

YES !
90 x 95 euros millions x 1.1 = 9.4 $billions

 

[4GTejasBVR]

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



It would be like the below

View attachment 345982

Flaws with Ur calculation. Tejas MK1A 80 ordered first will be ready by 2021/22. So only 40 Tejas.

Sukois yes 300 +

FGFA - Possibly with minute probability of 10-12 by 2021/22

Rafale will also be 36. If MII deal by 2018 12-18 more by 2021/22

Our one and only hope will be Gripin or F16 . Of its F16 then sky is the limit production rolling out jet by 2019. So by 2021/22 could be like 60 F16.

We are fcukin doomed with slow process for fight jets. Hope India would order 1 Squadron of PakFa from 2018-2022 while MII starts with 6-8 per year from 2020/21

 

[Abingdonboy]

I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.)

Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.

By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.

If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.

+ Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.

One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?

And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or IAF has expressed any such need.

Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :

View attachment 345976
​

Tay -----» [ ]

If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead

 

[Echo_419]

Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.

By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.

If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.

+ Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.


And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or GoI has expressed any such need.


If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead

I agree, I am waiting for Parkkiar to deny these reports

 

[Abingdonboy]

270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)

thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030

Bisons will start to be phased out from 2021, the Jag fleet will go foreward as DARIN III but only part of the fleet will be upgraded (the rest phased out) and no F-16s will come.

I agree, I am waiting for Parkkiar to deny these reports

I doubt it, that man only knows how to speak in riddles and contradictions

(maybe that is by design on instruction from the PM)

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



It would be like the below

View attachment 345982

3 different MMRCA contenders in service with the IAF?

Come on bro, let's be serious money may not be a huge restraint for India BUT that doesn't mean the MoD/GoI has the right no needlessly squander their funds on such follies, the force structure you have outlined would result in BILLIONS of USD in needless duplication of services and would be a total waste. 10s of millions of Indians are still malnurished, every rupee needs to be justified, there is no way 3 MMRCA types meet this criteria.

Replace the F-16 with more Rafale (combination of MII and off the shelf from France) and the Gripen with Mk.1A (with a 3rd production line going to L&T) so 24 LCA are being churned out a year and you will have an almost Oracle like prediction of what will come to be.

Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.

SAAB is a lead intergrator with limited production capacity of its own that also happens to be busy setting up Brazil's Gripen production capability. Dassualt are ready to offer their expertise I'm sure but really all it needs is to give the 3rd production line to a pvt entity and HAL's fixed wing arm will quickly get the kick in the rear they have been asking for for a while.

Where is FGFA in your calculations? Should start coming by 2023-2024.

*2026

 

[Echo_419]

Bisons will start to be phased out from 2021, the Jag fleet will go foreward as DARIN III but only part of the fleet will be upgraded (the rest phased out) and no F-16s will come.


I doubt it, that man only knows how to speak in riddles and contradictions

(maybe that is by design on instruction from the PM)


3 different MMRCA contenders in service with the IAF?

Come on bro, let's be serious money may not be a huge restraint for India BUT that doesn't mean the MoD/GoI has the right no needlessly squander their funds on such follies, the force structure you have outlined would result in BILLIONS of USD in needless duplication of services and would be a total waste. 10s of millions of Indians are still malnurished, every rupee needs to be justified, there is no way 3 MMRCA types meet this criteria.

Replace the F-16 with more Rafale (combination of MII and off the shelf from France) and the Gripen with Mk.1A (with a 3rd production line going to L&T) so 24 LCA are being churned out a year and you will have an almost Oracle like prediction of what will come to be.


SAAB is a lead intergrator with limited production capacity of its own that also happens to be busy setting up Brazil's Gripen production capability. Dassualt are ready to offer their expertise I'm sure but really all it needs is to give the 3rd production line to a pvt entity and HAL's fixed wing arm will quickly get the kick in the rear they have been asking for for a while.


*2026

On a totally unrelated topic
Any idea where I can find the complete list of equipment, from helmet to boots, used by the Army Infantry?

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is no additional MKI orders, IAF chief said it multiple times.

The current MKI production cycle will come to an end in 2019 (2020 at the latest), the FGFA will not be in production before 2026 (maybe, MAYBE 2025) so there is still a huge period of time where HAL's Naisik plant will be idle and this just isn't going to be allowed. More MKI orders will be made simply to keep the plant humming along until the FGFA is ready to enter production. At least another 30 MKIs will come post 2019 (with HAL turning down output to single digits per annum to stretch the delivery timeline.).

9 sqd of Upgraded Mig29/M2000/jaugars, It will be replaced by AMCA after 2030 (im quoting IAF chief again)

Spot on.

On a totally unrelated topic
Any idea where I can find the complete list of equipment, from helmet to boots, used by the Army Infantry?

Maybe try Googling "WW1-era infantry equipment?"


Seriosuly though I'm not sure bro.

 

[#hydra#]

Straight from the Defence Minister's mouth; money is not an issue.

By 2026 (when the last payment for these 36 off the shelf Rafales will be made) India's defence budget will be >$120BN/year.

If you are so insistent on framing this purely through a financial prism please refer to the LCC of the Su-30MKI fleet and the Rafale's. If the IAF and MoD are happy to sanction a fleet of >300 MKIs then there is no issue with a similar (give or take) size force of Rafales that will offer greater availability, ease of maintainence and far fewer resources to keep flying.

+ Also please tell me why India is spending €1.8BN to make Indian specific upgrades for such a miniscule fleet? This is a point I have not seen ANYONE who would make the frankly absurd point only 36/54 are coming, address. Sure, call the Rafale "costly" (entirely ignoring the cost of comparable a/c and even the latest MKIs) but ignore what actually makes the deal for India costly. It is intellectually dishonest at the very least.


And that is the RIGHT question, try asking the presstitutes who have no shame in openly highlighting their ties to SAAB or LM where this entire foreign LWF requirement has come from because neither the MoD or IAF has expressed any such need.


If you want all of the tech that gives France a descernable edge in the fighter arena to be forfeit go ahead

Tell me weather 16 is coming or not?I don't want that to happen...