What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Not really but this off e shelf purchase lays the groundwork. Dassualt are in talks separately to manufacture >90 Rafales in India (as confirmed by their CEO in Febuary).

The IAF would not be spending 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades for their Rafales if eye were only going to go for 36 units. Such a high cost of ndian sepcifc upgrades only makes sense when spread out over a far larger fleet.

Combined orders for the IAF and IN for the Rafale could touch 200 units.

So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.
 
So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.
why this deal couldn't materialize for so many year!? Pls do tell us why?
 
So if the french tomorrow again, get you into a stalemate over 'made in india' thing, What do you plan? You think they will easily be convinced after all we know why this deal couldn't materialize for so many years.
And Martians could invade tomorrow also.

We could talk hypotheticals until the cows come home but that doesn't really achieve anything.

Under the IGA signed between India and France in Jan 2016 there was an agreed upon minimum order of units India would procure for the IAF and IN this is what has brought concessions from both sides and why the French have thrown in certain "sweetners" (free training, free weapon storage costs, access to trainers etc etc).

If there was not an agreement in place then there is no way India would have committed to these 36 off the shelf birds nor would it be willing to pay 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades. The fact 36 jets have been ordered ensures many many more are coming for both the IAF and IN. This is a G2G deal, not a pure commercial deal and hence there is a strategic nature to the talks, both sides are now clearly on the same page hence the signature.
 
And Martians could invade tomorrow also.

We could talk hypotheticals until the cows come home but that doesn't really achieve anything.

Under the IGA signed between India and France in Jan 2016 there was an agreed upon minimum order of units India would procure for the IAF and IN this is what has brought concessions from both sides and why the French have thrown in certain "sweetners" (free training, free weapon storage costs, access to trainers etc etc).

If there was not an agreement in place then there is no way India would have committed to these 36 off the shelf birds nor would it be willing to pay 1.8bn EUR on Indian specific upgrades. The fact 36 jets have been ordered ensures many many more are coming for both the IAF and IN. This is a G2G deal, not a pure commercial deal and hence there is a strategic nature to the talks, both sides are now clearly on the same page hence the signature.

Alright we'll see in time - Thanks for your reply.
 
Rafale deal will bring good business for us: Samtel chief

Defence MSME major Samtel Avionics is betting big on the Indian market even as the Indian defence industry is poised for a quantum leap, says Puneet Kaura, MD and CEO, Samtel Avionics. The Samtel Avionics, which has a joint venture with Thales, is exploring various options to meet the offset obligations of Dassault Aviation that manufactures Rafale jets. In an interview with BusinessLine, he said procurement of the French Rafale fighter jets will bring big business for the firm. Excerpts:

Now that the $8-billion Rafale deal is in place, what benefit does it bring to you?

We have the same aim for Rafale that is similar to our Mirage upgrade experience. In Rafale, we are looking at supplying infra red search and track system, some work on the electronic warfare suite, we are also looking at avionics, including computers and displays. This was also our original plan when the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) was in discussions. I don’t see any reason why it should change.

But the procurement of these jets will be done in flyaway condition. How will this benefit you?

Rafale will bring big business to the Indian market. They need offsets and this will stretch beyond 2018-19, which is the time required to set up and start manufacturing things like this. There will still be a pipeline of 130-140 more planes to be made for the global market. And plus, let’s say India buys two more squadrons then it comes back to 167-170 planes. And then, they can always use the last leg, the last 6-10 aircraft they can still use even if the timeline is short for manufacturing from India.


Does the scaling down of the project from 126 jets to 36 impact you?

See we are starting somewhere at least. It has been 15 years that this discussion is going on. We have to look at the reality. The initial plan was too ambitious.

Of late biggies such as Lockheed Martin, SAAB and Boeing all have expressed their intention to set up their assembly lines here. What kind of opportunities does that bring for MSMEs like you?

We are working with all consortium partners. We are already engaged with many of them as supplier. So these will augment our business. We are engaged with a lot of American, Russian, European and Israeli companies.

Tell us about your Mirage 2000 upgrade experience?

This was a good experience. We were able to set up a world-class production line similar to what they have in France, transferred the technology and manufactured about 21-22 ship sets. Now we are looking at all the other Mirages that are coming up that will be using this facility for this product for global supply chain. Then there are whole lot of indirect offsets that we are planning to do. We are looking at developing global supply chains for locally designed, developed products. The product lines for those are under discussions right now. This is what we call ‘Go Global.’

For MSMEs like you won’t Make-II be more beneficial where the projects are fully funded?

This is definitely more beneficial. Once the product is developed it is easier for the government to invest. Make-II gives more confidence to the supplier that the customer will buy because it will be based on a contract with a timeline.

What is your opinion on how the Strategic Partnerships chapter is shaping up? The government is yet to finalise it and it seems the big firms are opposed to having only one SP in one segment?

See part of the problem is that every category there is a PSU that exists. I do not think we have the market for two SPs. It is not an easy task. Let’s see how it unfolds. But they are first looking at fighters to start with the SPs because there is a huge gap there. So let us see how it goes.

Now that you have gained a deep foothold in the market, are you planning to expand your portfolio?

In the electronic space, we are already looking at avionics that includes cockpit avionics and electronics that go into back-end of the aircraft. We are looking at sensor suites, high-end sensors, so we are looking at multiple product lines. Then there is vehicle electronics such as armoured vehicles and tanks. Still there is huge shortage of players in electronic space and then there is huge demand also for electronics.

Are there any plans to expand production units?

We have three production units. These are independent to each other. Instead of going for JVs, we are now looking for joint working groups by either through ToT and giving royalty to foreign OEMs or joint manufacturing without equity infusion.

(This article was published on September 23, 2016)

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...siness-for-us-samtel-chief/article9141228.ece
hello parikrima sir , any information on when MII part of this rafale deal will be disclosed
 
Hearing something from the source
  • The deliveries will begin sooner than 36 months surely
  • The outer periphery as per contract is definitely longer as per the worst case schedule
  • The internal agreement seems to be supplying maximum aircrafts between 36-54 (18 months period) and finishing off the contract
  • In short its basically 4.5 years or all deliveries will be over before 2021 Q1 end as per the plan.
  • The source also said in the words of DM MP - "the offsets in this deal will be in line with Make In India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi"
  • In the words of DM MP he certainly believes atm only aircraft better than Rafale is something which is not exportable at all and is no more produced and is the only realistic 5th Gen aircraft among all countries.
  • In another word, a certain some one explained that looking at new F35 costs for Israel as detailed by Israeli AF to us, the cost comes out to be massive $450 Mn +.
  • To this, DM MP quipped our FGFA wont be too cheap as all 5th generation aircraft are like that cost only
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @others


hello parikrima sir , any information on when MII part of this rafale deal will be disclosed
Hello, no Sir pls
MII will be disclosed in phases.
  • First will be release of Strategic Partnership (SP) Model completely by MOD
  • Second will be formal approval and endorsement by MOD for SP of DA group along with JVs of Thales and Safran being part of this working consortium with a Indian private sector company. The other participants will be in thsi group the JV holders of Thales and Safran as well.
  • Third will be formal announcement by MOD for signing an IGA/Contract for the batch/first tranche of aircraft under MII. This is expected by March 2017
 
Hearing something from the source
  • The deliveries will begin sooner than 36 months surely
  • The outer periphery as per contract is definitely longer as per the worst case schedule
  • The internal agreement seems to be supplying maximum aircrafts between 36-54 (18 months period) and finishing off the contract
  • In short its basically 4.5 years or all deliveries will be over before 2021 Q1 end as per the plan.
  • The source also said in the words of DM MP - "the offsets in this deal will be in line with Make In India initiative launched by Prime Minister Narendra Modi"
  • In the words of DM MP he certainly believes atm only aircraft better than Rafale is something which is not exportable at all and is no more produced and is the only realistic 5th Gen aircraft among all countries.
  • In another word, a certain some one explained that looking at new F35 costs for Israel as detailed by Israeli AF to us, the cost comes out to be massive $450 Mn +.
  • To this, DM MP quipped our FGFA wont be too cheap as all 5th generation aircraft are like that cost only
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @hellfire @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @GuardianRED @zebra7 @Ankit Kumar 002 @others



Hello, no Sir pls
MII will be disclosed in phases.
  • First will be release of Strategic Partnership (SP) Model completely by MOD
  • Second will be formal approval and endorsement by MOD for SP of DA group along with JVs of Thales and Safran being part of this working consortium with a Indian private sector company. The other participants will be in thsi group the JV holders of Thales and Safran as well.
  • Third will be formal announcement by MOD for signing an IGA/Contract for the batch/first tranche of aircraft under MII. This is expected by March 2017
If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?
 
If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?
Not going to touch the F-35 vs Rafale grenade but the fact is the Israelis are mandated to buy American hardware thanks to all the military aid they receive from Uncle Sam. The F-35 was forced down their throats, really they wanted upgraded F-15Is but the USG is basically the front for their MIC and insisted on a F-35 purchase.
 
If f35 is not as good as rafale yet costly,then why Israelis are not going for rafale?

As of today F35 may not be good, but some day the white elephant will mature. And its sheer numbers across the world and successfully integrating new weapons and stabilizing the coding issues over time, will see this as a much potent system. No doubt its more advanced than say F22. But its still a bit far from its true potential.

Hopefully its the same time by 2024 when Rafale F3R2 also comes online. Basically it will keep Rafale in good solid competitive position versus the F35s.

Israel cant buy the Rafales. For them the US F35s were not good enough thats why Adir has so much customization to make it suitable and meet Israeli AF requirements. It in a way point to the realistic position.

Anyway i guess soon we will have F35 Adir vs Rafale India exercise. We should get to know much more at that point of time.
 
As of today F35 may not be good, but some day the white elephant will mature. And its sheer numbers across the world and successfully integrating new weapons and stabilizing the coding issues over time, will see this as a much potent system. No doubt its more advanced than say F22. But its still a bit far from its true potential.

Hopefully its the same time by 2024 when Rafale F3R2 also comes online. Basically it will keep Rafale in good solid competitive position versus the F35s.

Israel cant buy the Rafales. For them the US F35s were not good enough thats why Adir has so much customization to make it suitable and meet Israeli AF requirements. It in a way point to the realistic position.

Anyway i guess soon we will have F35 Adir vs Rafale India exercise. We should get to know much more at that point of time.
By 2024, China's J20 R2D2 will be ready! So we are good.
 
India-specific enhancements of the Rafale Fighter Jet
Published September 24, 2016
SOURCE: ET

rafale-1.jpg


The Rafale deal caters to Indian Air Force’s specific needs. The fighter jet will be modified by France to meet the following:

Only Indian specific modifications led us hopping 1.75 billion $ bill out of total contact value
 
Last edited:
I understand the tendency to undermine F35, but neither F15 or F16 were problem free in the start, and F35 is another level of sophistication all together.
Saying it's no better than the rafale is lack of knowledge at best.
and as for Israeli system integration, Israel rather integrate it's avionics into every thing it purchases, so it will serve them best.
I won't continue to comment on this stupid comparision but you should stick on rafale capabilities rather than slide to propaganda.
And btw, the Israeli pilot who went to learn about the plane in the U.S are very happy about it's capabilities, so I heard

Not going to touch the F-35 vs Rafale grenade but the fact is the Israelis are mandated to buy American hardware thanks to all the military aid they receive from Uncle Sam. The F-35 was forced down their throats, really they wanted upgraded F-15Is but the USG is basically the front for their MIC and insisted on a F-35 purchase.
Israel is probably going to buy latest F15-I soon to, as mentioned by Rise in MOU, F-35 is meant to replace old F16's
 
5440567.jpg


The Rafale deal has been long in the making, with the NDA govt scrapping the original 2007 project and going for direct purchase of 36 Rafales. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier talked to TOI . Excerpts:

What does Rafale bring to India ?
The number one reason for the success (in the deal going through) is its capabilities. The aircraft’s performance was evaluated by the skilled IAF in different conditions here (during the MMRCA project evaluation).It has the capability to do everything. It’s a good air-to-air combat aircraft, a strike aircraft, a reconnaisance and intelligence aircraft. It is good for all types of missions designed for the French forces, including from aircraft carriers. This was totally in line with what IAF wanted.

You said the negotiations were tough. What are the advantages for India on the price front, or on the technology front?
The negotiations were really tough on the price. I will not say how much as that is part of the discussion between the two governments. This is an inter-government deal.As far as 50% offsets… they (India) have been able to get more from us.

I feel this happened because of the confidence in the long partnership between India and France, between IAF and Dassault. India is proud about the first (Dassault) fighters it acquired in 1953 and later, the Mirage-2000s. When you are speaking defence, you don’t want to have just a good deal. You want a good plane. A good fighter, because this part of the world might sometimes be dangerous. You don’t deal with security lightly .

Is there any reference to the Rafale being nuclear capable?
It is totally in line with the French definition and more than that, we have been developing specifications that were required by the IAF. But basically it is the same system as for France.

And the French Rafales are nuclear capable?
That is something specific to France.

There have been questions on the high costs. It is said India can buy three Russian Sukhois for one Rafale.

Yes, maybe Rafale is more expensive. But those who know about fighters also know that Rafale is much more capable than a Sukhoi… in terms of survivability and all combat roles. The Russian aircraft are good, no doubt.But when your air force will have the Rafale, they will be happy to have it in their inventory, just like the Mirage-2000s which are the backbone of IAF.

Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F 16.

How did the negotiations change with the current government taking office since the MMRCA project was deadlocked?
I think they (Modi government) took a decision to reduce the number of aircraft but go ahead with the deal. We want fighters to be delivered, you need a CCO (contract change order). It is this government that decided. They signed the deal. They made this deal a reality.

Do you think India will go in for more orders?
We will work on it. As a manufacturer I will like to sell more. But I am satisfied with this contract. We will work with our Indian colleagues to develop the local industry here.

What does this deal mean for the India-France strategic partnership?
It is between the governments. A strategic partnership is more than an aircraft deal. I can only comment on the aircraft. The partnership is at a political level, it is more than good, we are real partners.

What about the 50 per cent offsets condition… which are the areas that can be developed?
India is already a leading country in software. We would like to take advantage of this. It is time to develop equipment. It can be a success story. Dassault is at the top in digital processes. This is a must to address the worldwide market.

There are fears about India-France defence projects after the Scorpene data leak.

I am sure the leak is being investigated. About Dassault, I will say security is a very serious matter. We have protected ourselves but zero risk does not exist.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/rafale-o...f-16-jets-eric-trappier.451260/#ixzz4LC8q9AuV
 
Back
Top Bottom