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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

And media starts a unnecessary PR campaign

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DEFENCE
Win-Win Rafale Deal: How Indian Negotiators Brought Down The Price Of Fighter Jets
Nitin Gokhale - September 22, 2016, 1:53 pm
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SNAPSHOT




India and France have finally agreed to the terms for the Rafale jet deal.

An analysis of the process reveals that Indian negotiators were well aware of the critical nuances of it, and used them to India’s advantage.


If India has not bought a single piece of artillery for more than 28 years, the story is as dismal for the fleet of combat jets. No new fighter planes have been procured by the Indian Air Force (IAF) since the beginning of this century. The long wait for new fighter jets to replace the ageing MiG-21s and beef up the depleting combat fleet is about to get over tomorrow (23 September) with India and France set to sign a 7.878 billion Euros contract with Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale jet fighters.

All 36 planes will be delivered to India in a span of 66 months.

India will receive the first Rafale fighter jet within three years of signing the agreement, sources in the negotiating team have said.

These fighter jets will have at least a dozen India-specific enhancements to suit the requirements of the IAF. The contract will also include state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp that will give the IAF a capability that had been sorely missing in its arsenal.

The Meteor, for instance is a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150 km. Its integration on the Rafale jets will mean the IAF can hit targets inside both Pakistan and Tibet while still staying within India’s own territorial boundary. Scalp, a long-range air-to-ground cruise missile, with a range in excess of 300 km also gives the IAF an edge over its adversaries.

The weapons platform apart, the Ministry of Defence (MoD)-IAF negotiating team extracted many concessions and discounts to arrive at a price that is almost 750 million Euros less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016, when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

In January this year, a day before French President François Hollande and Prime Minister Modi were to jointly issue a statement during the French President’s visit to India, the French side had quoted a price of 8.6 billion Euros. Not willing to accept what was seen as a high price, the Indian team refused to close the deal, forcing the two leaders to issue a statement which talked about finalising the deal without the price.

To bring down the cost, the Indian team asked French officials to calculate the deal on actual cost (price as on today) plus European inflation indices (which varies like stock markets and is currently around one per cent per annum). The MoD has also capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. In other words, if inflation indices go down (chances of it going down are more, looking at the current situation of European markets) India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase.

In the now scrapped process for buying 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), confusion reigned supreme in calculating the cost of the contract. After the French Dassault Aviation—makers of the Rafale Jet — emerged winners, the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed-cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent inflation indices from day one of the deal. So, had India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European inflation indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation indices (at 3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself. Moreover, there was confusion on the calculation of the basic price itself.

In the original MMRCA proposal, the first batch of 18 planes were to be manufactured in France, and the next 108 were to be manufactured in India. However, when negotiations for the cost of 108 fighters began, it was discovered that the cost would go up substantially (in fact to the tune of Rs 150 crore per plane) since the cost of labour man hours in India were 2.7 times higher than in France. Moreover, then defence minister AK Antony had put down on file a remark that the negotiating team must come back to him before finalising the contract, creating more confusion for the negotiators. Clearly, with these factors, the fact that the French company had emerged as the lowest bidder in itself had come under a cloud!

The current MoD team on the other hand extracted several other discounts. For instance, Dassault will have to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the entire fleet remains operational at any given time. This warranty is signed for the first five years. A comparative analysis will show that only about 60 per cent of India’s frontline fighters, the Sukhoi-30 fleet remain operational at any given time in the current scenario.

Till three years ago, only about 48 per cent of the Sukhoi fleet was able to fly at any given time, because of poor maintenance. Called the performance-based logistics support, this clause can be extended by the user (the IAF) at the same cost as today for another two years with an option that the same terms can be applied for an additional five years at an additional cost that is negotiable.

Three other minor but important concessions include free training for nine IAF personnel, including three pilots; additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge (in case the Indian infrastructure is not ready for storing the weapons). The three concessions alone would make substantial saving for India, sources pointed out.


This piece was originally appeared onBharatshakti.in and has been republished here with permission
 
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A Rafale fighter jet flies during the Flying Spirit aerial meeting in Biscarrosse ─ AFP


NEW DELHI: India may have just spent billions of dollars on hi-tech French fighter jets, but experts say it needs to do a lot more if it is going to face up to an increasingly assertive China.

The world's top defence importer has signed several big-ticket deals as part of a $100-billion upgrade since Hindu nationalist Prime Minister Narendra Modi took power in 2014.

But it has been slow to replace its dwindling fleet of Russian MiG-21s ─ dubbed "Flying Coffins" because of their poor safety record.

An agreement to buy 36 cutting edge Rafale jets from France's Dassault aims to fix that.

"It will give the air force an arrowhead. Our air force has old aircraft, 1970s and 1980s generation aircraft and for the first time in about 25-30 years we will have a quantum jump in technology," defence analyst Gulshan Luthra told AFP.

"Rafale is loaded with (the) best of the technologies and we need it." The air force says it needs at least 42 squadrons to protect its northern and western borders with Pakistan and China.

It currently has around 32, each comprising 18 aircraft. Air force representatives warned India's parliament last year that the number of squadrons could fall to 25 by 2022, putting India on a par with its nuclear-armed neighbour and arch-rival Pakistan.

'Pakistan we can handle'
The real concern is China, an ally of Pakistan whose military capacities are way in excess of India's.

"Pakistan we can handle. Pakistan we can muscle our way, but China, no way we can handle," said Luthra.

"And if China comes to the aid of Pakistan, then we're stuck." China and India fought a brief war in 1962, and the border between the neighbours has never been formally demarcated, although they have signed accords to maintain peace.

The Rafale deal, due to be signed in New Delhi on Friday, will supply another two squadrons, although it will be three years before delivery of the jets begins.

It falls way short of previous proposals for India to buy 126 of the jets, which stalled over costs and assembly guarantees.

Currently being used for bombing missions over Syria and Iraq, the Rafale can fly distances of up to 3,800 kilometres (2,360 miles).

Experts say it will allow the air force to strike targets in Pakistan and China from within Indian territory. But critics argue the Rafale purchase is a costly solution to the problem, even after India bargained hard to get the price down to a reported 7.9 billion euros ($8.8 billion).

'Can't afford Mercedes'
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar reportedly said last year the larger Rafale deal was too expensive.

"We are not buying the rest. I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it." Modi has said he wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

His government lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence to 49 per cent last year.

Many now believe India will use the money saved from scrapping the larger Rafale order to invest in its first domestically developed light fighter plane, the Tejas.

The aircraft, touted as the smallest and lightest supersonic fighter aircraft of their class, are designed and manufactured in India, although some components are imported.

Defence analyst Ajai Shukla said the purchase of 36 Rafales would "placate Dassault, the Indian Air Force and public opinion" after the larger deal was scrapped, but did not make good operational sense.

"You don't replace a small, light fighter plane with an extraordinarily expensive heavy monster like Rafale," he said.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1285397/india-needs-more-than-rafale-jets-to-match-china-experts
 
Indeed.

What India needs is an Emergency declaration and rapid allocation to manufacturing by DPSUs.

Technically we are still 30 years behind what we should be thanks to all the shitty bureaucracy.
 
With delivery of 36 Rafales by 2021 IAF will have the following

36 Rafales
50 Mirage2000/5
270 Su30mki
60 Mig29 up
60 Tejas mk1a
70 Jaguar


By 2021 iaf will 4 years away from inducting FGFA from Russia but customised to indian needs

PLAAF

Same time IE 2021 will have

350 J10
400 S30/27/J11/
300 F7/J8/JH7
150 bombers

by 2021 I expect to see J20 months away from entering service I suspect J31 wil not be ready until at least 2024/2025


With PLAAF facing USA navy Taiwan Japan And Korea threy can t really have otre one third that fleet at indian theatre.

IN WHICH CASE IAF will have enough
 
India has a follow on clause for 18 more aircraft, which I am sure is yet to happen. Using this time, negotiators can try talking like a MKI like deal for production in India.
 
India approves purchase of 36 Rafale
The 09/21/2016 at 18:00



After nearly half a year of tough negotiations between Paris and New Delhi, the Indian government has opened the way to the end of commercial paper. Holland asked Le Drian to go Friday in New Delhi.

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According to the Indian press the transaction amount would be 7.87 billion euros.

DASSAULT AVIATION / BRUNO PLASSIN

The Indian government approved Wednesday, September 21, purchase at France 36 fighter aircraft Rafale of Dassault, largest export order for the French fighter. After nearly half a year of tough negotiations between Paris and New Delhi, the green light from the government of Narendra Modi terminate this long-term commercial soap to center relations between the two countries.

"The contract was approved during a meeting tonight. It will be formally signed by the French defense minister and his Indian counterpart on September 23 in New Delhi," said a ministry official of the Indian defense under cover of anonymity told AFP.

If neither the French authorities nor Dassault are expressed themselves on this announcement, the Elysee has however confirmed by news coming Friday in New Delhi Jean-Yves Le Drian.

After a difficult start to export the Rafale had been sold in 2015 in Qatar and Egypt. Each had acquired 24 aircraft.

The details of the voluminous agreement, including the price and the full range of weaponry purchased, "will be made public after the signing ceremony," said the Indian official.

According to the Press Trust of India, India would pay a total of € 7.9 billion for the contract.

Saga of the Rafale in India
This agreement, however, remains modest in comparison to what was described from "contract of the century".

The most populous democracy in the world originally had launched a tender for 126 combat aircraft, for which it had entered into exclusive negotiations with Dassault in 2012.

But the order was never born. New Delhi demanded indeed significant technology transfer, in order to boost its local industry, which would have led to significant additional costs.

Came to power in 2014 in favor of political change, the new Indian Prime Minister had officially recorded the failure of negotiations and canceled the procedure.

On the occasion of a trip to Paris in April 2015, Narendra Modi had announced the intention of his government to buy 36 Rafaleready to fly, negotiated as part of an agreement from state to state.

Military applications
The arrival of French fighters should alleviate some of the Indian Air Force, which denounces longtime insufficient equipment in her to show up to the geopolitical challenges in the region.

Besides the old enmity with neighboring Pakistan since independence, India is faced with the rise and affirmation of China on the Asian continent.

"It's a contract that should have been completed much earlier. The Rafale beats all other combat aircraft in the region," enthused Manmohan Bahadur, vice-marshal of the air force retired seal by AFP.

The purchase of the Rafale will allow New Delhi to modernize its aging fleet, many composed of Russian aircraft at end of life.

But this command does not fully palliate the needs of its air force. In 2015, it had only 35 squadrons of 18 aircraft, when she felt in need of at least 42.

A first step?
"The Indian Army has very heavy modernization needs," said Corentin Brustlein, head of security studies at the French Institute of International Relations (IFRI).

"Beyond the sale of these 36 ( Rafale ), there is the prospect of an even more important dimension of contract that would Dassault live for many more years," he says.

In the past, leaders of the manufacturer clearly expressed their wish that this contract is a first step, opening the door to new opportunities in India.

The French arms exports reached a record 16.9 billion euros in 2015, more than double the previous year, thanks to the first contracts for the sale of fighter Rafale abroad.

This contract should give a boost to trade between France and India. In 2014, the last year for which statistics were available, they amounted to 7.9 billion euros.

(With AFP)
http://www.challenges.fr/entreprise...ne-son-feu-vert-a-l-achat-de-36-rafale_427720

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I like the fact that finally such more views are slowly coming out :partay:

Quite appropriately some infographics are out like this
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At least dozen specific Indian enhancements to suit IAF requirements. and a cost for that.. Looks like whatever we have discussed earlier is now looked with lens by many other folks as well. Of course PR exercise is a bit over the top, but its raising the curtains to eventual stuff which is justifiable based on what its portraying as of now.


@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Vergennes @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @GuardianRED @Armani @randomradio @R!CK @Ankit Kumar 002 @[Bregs] @MilSpec @hellfire @Spectre @nair @Joe Shearer @SpArK
 
The Rafale gets bad reviews based on three reasons, all of which will be explained here.
1. The Rafale is highly priced. This is actually due to the fact that the French Armee de l'Air (French Air Force) wanted a plane that could fit the roles of "seven planes in one" (directly translated from the words of a top ranking French official). This would explain the high price.
2. The Russians and the EU (especially the UK), the proponents of the Sukhoi Su-35, MiG 35, and the Eurofighter Typhoon are in utter disappointment over the Rafale's win in the MMRCA and want to destroy its reputation.
3. (This one "piggybacks" off of the second reason.)French company, Dassault, had originally been a part of the Eurofighter consortium before pulling out due to disagreements with other partner nations and corporations. When they pulled out, the Eurofighter-backing nations were surprised to see that Dassault had actually designed a more potent aircraft than they had and wanted to crush the Rafale's export prospects.

This is why India would buy this so-called "inferior" jet. :rofl::D
 

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