Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Picdelamirand-oil]

can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?

It's just the start of a long story.

 

[4GTejasBVR]

can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?

Rafale is not mig 21 replacement. But for mig27. Mig21 will be replaced with Tejas and another imported single engine fighter

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

It's just the start of a long story.

If you are refering to the original 126 units proposal, i know the story. Rather, my point now is how is the revised 36 units costing billions gonna make any substantial difference to the operational requirements of IAF?

Is India buying the 36 rafales now just for the sake of buying?

 

[randomradio]

can some1 please explain how is 36 rafales going to make any meaningful difference in replacing the soon-to-be-decommisoned Mig-21s?

The first 36 are meant for delivering nuclear weapons. Note the word 'first'.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

The first 36 are meant for delivering nuclear weapons. Note the word 'first'.

1)India needs at least 42 squadrons for her operational requirements. <== correct me if im wrong
2)India has only 32 squadrons now. <== correct me if im wrong.
3)India is set to lose another further 14 squadrons with the incoming decommisioning of the mig21s and 27s. <== correct me if im wrong.
4)1 squadron in the Indian Air force consists of 16-18 planes. <=== correct me if im wrong.
5)The Rafales deal specifically confirmed only 36units(to be signed on the 23 sep this mth) <=== correct me if im wrong

This means IAF would be left with 18 squadrons(after the Mig21s and 27s).
42- 18 = 24 squadrons worth of planes in total.
24 x 16(as a minimum) = 384 planes needed minimally just for the Air force alone.

How is the handful of tejas and 36 rafales gonna change all these?
What's that 'imported single engine fighter'?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

If you are refering to the original 126 units proposal, i know the story. Rather, my point now is how is the revised 36 units costing billions gonna make any substantial difference to the operational requirements of IAF?

Is India buying the 36 rafales now just for the sake of buying?

Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Yes 36 is small for a country like India, and these first 36 are mainly for delivering nuclear weapons. But 36 Rafale is not something negligible, in France it is considered that one Rafale can replace 3 mirage 2000, and we had replaced 593 older aircraft with only 140 Rafale. If we use the same rate for India that means you can replace 150 older aircraft with the first 36 Rafale.

Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)

Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)

We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.

Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)

 

[GuardianRED]

Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)



We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.

Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? no(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)?

Pal there are 300+ pages on this thread that explain why the reason the Rafale is choosen including the role and the Quantity that is brought

U have failed to understand that in addition to this , its not a Handful of Tejas but 200+ frames are envisioned ie. of Mk1,Mk1A and Mk2s. Plus there are other programs that are running concurrently ie the Upgrade programs for the jaguars, Mig29s and Mirage 2000s and soon to be added , the Super 30 Program .

Thought the IAF is sanctioned 42 Sqd. THIS isn't written in stone!. and that requirement is like 10 - 15 yrs back, which unfortunately our gullible media like to parrot once in a while. Its 2016 and it is the IAF which is the best institution to understand their own requirements and operational need!

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

Pal there are 300+ pages on this thread that explain why the reason the Rafale is choosen including the role and the Quantity that is brought

U have failed to understand that in addition to this , its not a Handful of Tejas but 200+ frames are envisioned ie. of Mk1,Mk1A and Mk2s. Plus there are other programs that are running concurrently ie the Upgrade programs for the jaguars, Mig29s and Mirage 2000s and soon to be added , the Super 30 Program .

Thought the IAF is sanctioned 42 Sqd. THIS isn't written in stone!. and that requirement is like 10 - 15 yrs back, which unfortunately our gullible media like to parrot once in a while. Its 2016 and it is the IAF which is the best institution to understand their own requirements and operational need!

1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html

The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.

4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has upgrades for existing jets (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with increasing new squadron numbers?

5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
leeser squadrons she would need now?

 

[GuardianRED]

1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html

The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.

4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has upgrades for existing jets (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with increasing new squadron numbers?

5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
leeser squadrons she would need now?

So it is true that u have fallen for those every Gullible reports! that is very Sad

From what u have written either go ask your grandma for the details and development of the Tejas and its future or just go to the Thread here on PDF (there too 200+ Pages)

Do you understand that what upgrades goes to Fighting aircraft or like playing dumb? That these every upgrade can and well increase the capability and envelop of the single frame that the need for more frames is reduced.

Again you failed to understand the Term "Not set in Stone" and "Sanctioned" or you are playing dumb here again? The IAF is the best institution to Judge what are they need and are not placed on this earth to please U and tell u what they want and don't want

 

[randomradio]

1)India needs at least 42 squadrons for her operational requirements. <== correct me if im wrong
2)India has only 32 squadrons now. <== correct me if im wrong.
3)India is set to lose another further 14 squadrons with the incoming decommisioning of the mig21s and 27s. <== correct me if im wrong.
4)1 squadron in the Indian Air force consists of 16-18 planes. <=== correct me if im wrong.
5)The Rafales deal specifically confirmed only 36units(to be signed on the 23 sep this mth) <=== correct me if im wrong

This means IAF would be left with 18 squadrons(after the Mig21s and 27s).
42- 18 = 24 squadrons worth of planes in total.
24 x 16(as a minimum) = 384 planes needed minimally just for the Air force alone.

How is the handful of tejas and 36 rafales gonna change all these?
What's that 'imported single engine fighter'?

Your numbers are quite accurate. We need 400 new jets for the IAF and 150 new jets for the IN.

Out of those, the first 36 Rafales are an urgent requirement. Apart from that we could have anywhere between 120 and 180 Rafales through the MII (Make in India) program. And then there is a separate requirement to manufacture 90-120 single engine jets, Gripen, F-16 etc. Then there's the LCA program for 120 jets. That takes care of the 400 jets that the IAF needs.

As for the IN, they will be going for 45 N-LCAs and 54 Rafales. If they join in the IAF's MII program for Rafales, even they may order more than 100 Rafales.

We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.

Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)

The PMF will come in when we start plans for replacing jets like the Mig-29. The T-50 isn't good enough today, it isn't mature.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Ok so what u r saying is India is willing to get just the 36 Rafales mainly in order to fullfill the role of her nuclear delivery platform aka the strategic airwing of her envisioned nuclear triad? Another thing is India is not France geographically and geopolitically. It's already been stated she needs 42 squadrons to protect her borders up north and west So how does the capability of 36 Rafale has got anything to do with the quantity needed?(take note im not even going into the capability segment of the planes themselves)



We we were to follow your point(that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Y) as a benchmark, then India might as well dump all her money into the PMF project with Russia.

Surely, 36 PMFs would be a better deal? No?(using the logic that 1 Plane X can fullfill the role of 4 Plane Ys)

Yes you need 42 squadron, but for the moment you have only 32 and there is a threat that it decrease to 18. In this situation your objective would be to maintain the 32 instead of going to 18. 36 Rafale is at relatively short term compared to PAK-FA and I believe that you will add also some SU-30 to reach up to 300 units and more.

 

[ohmrlobalobayeh]

So it is true that u have fallen for those every Gullible reports! that is very Sad

From what u have written either go ask your grandma for the details and development of the Tejas and its future or just go to the Thread here on PDF (there too 200+ Pages)

Do you understand that what upgrades goes to Fighting aircraft or like playing dumb? That these every upgrade can and well increase the capability and envelop of the single frame that the need for more frames is reduced.

Again you failed to understand the Term "Not set in Stone" and "Sanctioned" or you are playing dumb here again? The IAF is the best institution to Judge what are they need and are not placed on this earth to please U and tell u what they want and don't want

1)From what have i written? i rather 'fall' for these guilable INDIAN reports about INDIAN planes(Rafales is considered an Indian plane if it's inducted into the IAF) than to listen to some emotional repeititive speculator who doesnt even know what he's talking about. on a defence forum.
2)What has upgrades for existing inventory got to do with increasing new squadron numbers? u're deliberately being evasive the second time and throwing another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring.
3)So u r saying due to the upgrades and 'increased capapbilities', squadron requirements are now lesser for the IAF(due to each plane being 'more capable' e.g 1 plane X can now shoot down 10 enemy plane Z)? If so, link source pls.

Atually forget it, cos i could see that u r just being evasive by going 'merry go round' and repeating everything for the second time with your blind rhetoric with no idea of what u r even talking about yourself.

Your numbers are quite accurate. We need 400 new jets for the IAF and 150 new jets for the IN.

Out of those, the first 36 Rafales are an urgent requirement. Apart from that we could have anywhere between 120 and 180 Rafales through the MII (Make in India) program. And then there is a separate requirement to manufacture 90-120 single engine jets, Gripen, F-16 etc. Then there's the LCA program for 120 jets. That takes care of the 400 jets that the IAF needs.

As for the IN, they will be going for 45 N-LCAs and 54 Rafales. If they join in the IAF's MII program for Rafales, even they may order more than 100 Rafales.



The PMF will come in when we start plans for replacing jets like the Mig-29. The T-50 isn't good enough today, it isn't mature.

ok good enough. So your end statement is:

these 36 rafales are just there to 'fill in the big gap' with whatever the IAF could satisfactorily find for the moment- no matter how small this gap-filler is until the PMF comes along in the future

Am i right?

 

[randomradio]

ok good enough. So your end statement is:

these 36 rafales are just there to 'fill in the big gap' with whatever the IAF could satisfactorily find for the moment- no matter how small this gap-filler is until the PMF comes along in the future

Am i right?

No, the 36 jets are meant for the SFC.

https://defence.pk/threads/india-strategic-command-to-acquire-40-nuclear-capable-fighters.72496/

The IAF will retain operational control over the jets, but the C&C will be with the SFC. Any move to 'fill in some gaps' will either be done by ordering 2 more MKI squadrons or ordering 3 squadrons of the Russian version of PAK FA. They are yet to make a decision, maybe already made.

IAF's requirement for 400 jets is still pending and that will be met via the MII programs for 3 different jets, Rafale/single engine/LCA. The LCA MII has already begun. We have reached an agreement with the French for the Rafale MII, but contract negotiations have to start, that will happen once we have setup the bureaucratic procedures for it. That could happen this year end or early next year. As for the single engine, we will be choosing the Gripen, F-16 or another indigenous Indian jet called the LSA, which is a single engine stealth jet.

The PMF has nothing to do with the Rafale/single engine/LCA etc. The PMF and the AMCA will be needed when we start replacing about 175 jets starting from 2027 and more than 250 jets after 2030. There will also be an increase in squadron strength of the IAF after 2030, their actual requirement is 54 squadrons.

 

[SR-91]

1) u sure there are 300+ pages explaining why 36 Rafales is bought on the basis for quantified operational requirements(which im basing my opinions about)?
2)of cos i know there would be more Tejas coming in(even my grandma would be able to figure that out that India would not be procuring 'just a handful of Tejas' after developing the plane for more than 3 decades). But how many has she now? Is it enough to fullfill her already lacking requirements for her Air force?
3)Mk2 (by an Indian source):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...s-instead-of-40-planned-earlier/1/495723.html

The article has stated that the MkII will never become a reality.

4)Sorry im a abit dumb I dont get your point- What has upgrades for existing jets (e.g like the super Sukhoi for the SUk30s, Mi29, etc) gotta do with increasing new squadron numbers?

5)So you are saying IAF has a requirement for lesser squadrons now? since u are sure that it's 'not set in stone' when so many recent articles all stated 42 squadrons, surely u know the amount of
leeser squadrons she would need now?

Number of squadrons will NOT change however IAF will reduce number of planes in each squadron to make up numbers of squadrons.

We will be inducting about 12 to 16 MKI this year. 20+ jets in 2017. 20-30 jets in 2018. Rafales starts arriving in 2019. So will LCA MK1-A.

To gain technical advantage we are upgrading all jets other jet that has life left in their airframes.