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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

The French would provide us with Rafales for the price they have quoted in their MMRCA proposal. THAT is the bench mark. Not to the price they provide to their govt.

If that were the case, I would agree with you. But the deal for 36 Rafales have no relation with MMRCA competition. Its a pure G2G agreement and the prices have been re-negotiated. Even the version we're getting now is totally different from what was initially offered in the MMRCA competition.

India already has Hanger, fuel dump, etc on existing bases where a large number of aircrafts are scheduled to be retired. Rafale is going to take up space on that base. Sure the base will be upgraded by new support equipments, but the infrastructure will pretty much remain the same. Any addition will be by IAF, like building hangers etc. Not by dassault.

That is true, but i'm still not convinced on the $100 Million figure.
 
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Let me help you here,

One of the USP of Rafale was that it had fully automatic monitoring system that reduced turn around time and minimized the used of ground equipments.

Dassault has also developed a single test bench capable of dealing with all electronic LRU that needs to be replaced.

Rafale is expected to be self supporting, requiring No external test benches for flight line or rear echelon maintenance.

THAT is why its has low operating cost, and low ground crew training requirements.

Rafale requires no complete airframe or engine depot level inspection throughout its service life. This was one of the many reason the IAF loved the Rafale.

But all of this put together also indicate a very low ground equipment and training cost. Hence the chart.
The Rafale really should be the backbone of the IAF, not the maintainence-intensive MKIs. 300+ MKIs are assured, the IAF needs at least 200-250 Rafales to offset this HUGE commitment.
 
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The French would provide us with Rafales for the price they have quoted in their MMRCA proposal. THAT is the bench mark. Not to the price they provide to their govt.

One has to be extremely naive and gullible to believe otherwise.

The flyaway price of the Rafale is said to be about $85M for the IAF. It was $105M earlier.
 
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That is true, but i'm still not convinced on the $100 Million figure.
But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.
 
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But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.

Base costs are more than a billion.
 
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But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?

Nirjara gave a decent answer on the continuous evaluation process.
I'll add that a bench exists, the one for dry testing the M-88 after a fix.

From strict to loose :

On deployment, landing gear and wheels, engines and ejection seat are maintained in-house.
Plus weaponry of course! The rest or a major bug with one of those equates to exchange parts.

At a base, more engine care and lots more parts plus a reserve of parts,
including ones from immobilized ACs. Since all Rafales are the same,
you can switch and swap and plug and play all systems say radar or OSF.
Except for Bs versus Cs, French squadrons have a local engineering and
maintenance department that does all planes. When morning comes, pick
any that is available and use it.

On a bigger base, this way of maintenance is actually shared by many sqdns.
Then, you had a shipping/sales rep. dept that gets the spares in and out.
The OSF and engine makers can send parts, modules and systems directly.
Dassault is only concerned with structural work where you need to touch the
whole cell which frees its plant for production and R&D.

So say a FADEC goes boink* : Take it off, send it to shipping, replace it with
any from your pool, test and replace the engine. The maker picks it up, choo-
ses the way to fix it and returns it to base.

And on top of that structure, the AdlA has a SIAé, Aeronautic Industrial Ser-
vice that can do all the work between that of the bases and that of the makers.
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/air/activites/maintenance-aeronautique/maintenance-aeronautique

It works pretty darn well! Tay.

* ( Well, it does go boink exactly, the onboard monitoring signals wear and if it goes over a limit
or starts sending in-flight reports, you remove it. )
 
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But what do you think will cost so much? As has been stated, the IAF is not going to be setting up new bases for the Rafales nor do they require BRDs so much of the infrastructure needed to support the Rafale will exist at any fighter base (hangers, ready rooms, accomadation etc) and remember that the Rafales are going to go into SQNs that already exist. There will be a need to upgrade certain facilties especially with the on-site maintainence equipment the Rafales offers but I don't see where the costs will balloon that much. Maybe $50 million per base is on the low side, but it shouldn't be more than $75 million.


Unlike the Russian jets, the Rafales need much more facilities for maintaining them properly. Hence the two bases will have to be adequately upgraded for these western jets. Yes, the basic infrastructure exists including weapons and spare depots. But they are designed for Russian inventory and need to be sufficiently modified for these. The Rafale relies on more of a software-centric approach than a physical one with regards to its health monitoring. The IAF technicians have to be extensively trained in its management as well as operating the equipment. You have also not mentioned the installation of simulators which will require a large chunk of money too. My approximation would be upwards of $500 Million.

Maybe the veterans here can give us an idea?
 
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I will try to find a document from French SENAT (a kind of French parliament) showing that total operating cost for one Rafale fly-hour is 10000 € and 8000 € for M2K. But @randomradio said me that in India it cost only $ 4000 for a M2K fly-hour.So I don't know how it will cost for the Rafale in India.
Maintenance/MRO cost of the Rafale:

life expectancy : 7500 h (update to 9000h as objective )

Rafale B/C in 2012:

Total MRO cost: 182,60 millions
Aircraft : 77
Annual cost per aircraft : 2,371 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours): 9484
Assemblee nationale | Question ecrite N° 22636 de M. Francois Cornut-Gentille (UMP - Haute-Marne)
http://questions.assemblee-nationale.fr/q14/14-22636QE.htm
Mirage 2000 in 2012:

Total cost : 294,90 millions
Aircraft : 136
Annual cost per aircraft: 2,168 millions
Cost per flight hour (250 hours) : 8672
http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/14/budget/plf2013/b0251-tIII-a10.asp
 
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@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil sirs, could you please explain a little about how Rafales are operated from their home bases. I know that they won't require the cumbersome BRD process like Russian origin equipment and a lot of MRO activities can be undertaken at the SQN level itself. But what exactly needs to be with each squadron (specific to the Rafale) at each base?


200% greater cost for a 300-400% longer lifespan and far greater reliability is more than justified (not to mention just how easy the M88 is to overhaul compared to the AL-31; 2 hour drop out vs 8-12 hours).

Yes Since the M88 is a modular engine the downtime will be very less which inturn will increase the availibility of the platform. But the cost is more since the whole module will be changed of issues with part or the lifecycle of it.
 
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Unlike the Russian jets, the Rafales need much more facilities for maintaining them properly. Hence the two bases will have to be adequately upgraded for these western jets. Yes, the basic infrastructure exists including weapons and spare depots. But they are designed for Russian inventory and need to be sufficiently modified for these. The Rafale relies on more of a software-centric approach than a physical one with regards to its health monitoring. The IAF technicians have to be extensively trained in its management as well as operating the equipment. You have also not mentioned the installation of simulators which will require a large chunk of money too. My approximation would be upwards of $500 Million.

Maybe the veterans here can give us an idea?
Simulators (for both aircrew and ground crew) will of course be a considerable expense but not in the 100s of millions, the 10s of millions only. I'm sure there is a lot I am failing to consider but I don't know how it can cost $500 million to upgrade a base to house a Rafale when much of the physical infrastructure will remain the same. If someone could break it down I would appreciate it, if that much has to be spent then I won't begrudge it- the IAF needs to do this right, there no point in cutting corners.
 
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2. Cost of base infrastructure creation... Dassult asking for 1.4 billion dollar for one base for rafale and already two bases are created in present order. In your view point of second MRCA of 126 fighters, we need creation of infrastructure on minimum 03 bases...that means an investment of 4.2 billion dollars.

Could you share with us where Dassault has asked us for $1.4 Billion for creation of base infrastructure?

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]
 
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Simulators (for both aircrew and ground crew) will of course be a considerable expense but not in the 100s of millions, the 10s of millions only. I'm sure there is a lot I am failing to consider but I don't know how it can cost $500 million to upgrade a base to house a Rafale when much of the physical infrastructure will remain the same. If someone could break it down I would appreciate it, if that much has to be spent then I won't begrudge it- the IAF needs to do this right, there no point in cutting corners.
http://www.sogitec.com/en/simulation_centres.htm
 
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