Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

Personally I would have preferred that the Rafale deal was scrapped in totality and we could have gone with Advanced Hornets with an option for F-35. This would have synergised well with our LCA and AMCA.

By "synergised" you mean "killed", right?

If one is truly interested in the AMCA being a success then Dassault is the way to go all day long, it isn't even a fair contest in that regard.

 

[Blue Marlin]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

what's the total value of the contract for the 36 rafales?

 

[Spectre]

what's the total value of the contract for the 36 rafales?

Same benchmark as Quatar and Egyptian deals on standalone basis. Goes without saying that accompanying packages are different.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..

Hmmm, I thought that was what you meant but it raises some interesting questions, namely- what are those Rafale-M for? The first of the 18 follow-ons wlll be in service by 2020, the IAC-2 won't be in service by then and neither will the follow-on IAC-1 class carrier. So these Rafale-M have to be for the IAC-1, correct?

Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.

This is pretty groundbreaking in itself, India certainly wouldn't have got this from the Americans.

The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..

There is no better aircraft carrier industry in the world than the in the US; no one else even comes close, so this is a pretty solid bet by the IN.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Same benchmark as Quatar and Egyptian deals on standalone basis. Goes without saying that accompanying packages are different.

ok about 9 billion.

 

[Spectre]

By "synergised" you mean "killed", right?

If one is truly interested in the AMCA being a success then Dassault is the way to go all day long, it isn't even a fair contest in that regard.

I meant what I said. India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments. Rest is contingent on US/Russian help.

ok about 9 billion.

As I said standalone basis, cost is coming out to be ~80-90 million per jet. Rest is spares and support package, training, weapons package, 10 years maintenance package, integration cost for some of the subsystems and weapons, base and 50% ToT.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I meant what I said. India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments. Rest is contingent on US/Russian help.

US/Russian help? France has a world class aerospace industry and are at the leading edge of technology, they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians. The Russians have the FGFA project to be getting on with and the Americans have no interest in building up India's defence industry beyond a point (creating a F-35 rival certainly isn't something they are going to be interested in). France is the most natural partner for the AMCA.

 

[Spectre]

US/Russian help? France has a world class aerospace industry and are at the leading edge of technology, they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians. The Russians have the FGFA project to be getting on with and the Americans have no interest in building up India's defence industry beyond a point (creating a F-35 rival certainly isn't something they are going to be interested in). France is the most natural partner for the AMCA.

What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved.

For some decades to come, India will always be 10-15 years behind US. By the time AMCA gets FOC, F-35 will be getting MLUs. Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved.

1)The F-35 is nowhere near what it is cracked up to be (F-22 is the real deal however)
2) There are plenty of countries who have no current plans for 5th gen fighters who will be looking for next gen platforms by the time the AMCA is ready and the AMCA will have some comparative advantadges (to some countries) over the F-35. With F-18s/15s on offer some nations are still buying Gripens are they not? The world will be a very different place in 20 years.

Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.

I don't think so, they said that about 5th gen fighters but 6th gen fighters are already being designed. I have no doubt UAS will play increasingly signifcant roles in aerial warfare but manned fighters will be around for much longer than we think.

 

[C130]

1)The F-35 is nowhere near what it is cracked up to be (F-22 is the real deal however)
2) There are plenty of countries who have no current plans for 5th gen fighters who will be looking for next gen platforms by the time the AMCA is ready and the AMCA will have some comparative advantadges (to some countries) over the F-35. With F-18s/15s on offer some nations are still buying Gripens are they not? The world will be a very different place in 20 years.


I don't think so, they said that about 5th gen fighters but 6th gen fighters are already being designed. I have no doubt UAS will play increasingly signifcant roles in aerial warfare but manned fighters will be around for much longer than we think.

thing is F-35 is a reality while the AMCA is a fantasy for now . going by past India ambitious projects like Tejas,Kaveri, and Arjun the AMCA will be decades behind schedule and rely heavily on foreign technology.

by then the F-35 will have matured and the price to buy and fly will have gone down significantly.

 

[Taygibay]

But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.

Ah! Slowly, some other Bharatis may get it that when I express doubts on MP as a politician
and think that Modi is a different, more complete beast, I'm not choosing differently than for my own.
It's a defendable opinion, that's all! The guy talks but doesn't deliver : politician / used car salesman.

How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?

It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..

Fine way to go! Get the work done in IAF maintenance. Then get perfection at finalizing products.
Later, get to build/assemble product! By which time you should have learned to design it yourself!
If that last didn't happen, ask questions!

Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..

I'll differ my friend. The token 18 options go to IN to prepare the future.
And are served last or later. By the time the full complement is bought,
present public opinion will have faded and getting 46 more direct from
France will be greeted as friendly instead of decried as squandering ...

IST is very used in such dealings, over decades at best but over governments regularly.

I don't know and neither does anyone on the forum about what's the deal with MII component.

Shush, Fantomas! No one but God can talk for others. It's quite simple :

The MII component is alive and well or there's no deal, Sherlock!​

Neither side can stomach the small deal alone, India less than France.

India alone can do 75% of AMCA work given time and investments

Yeah but even if you did not lack the dozen of trillions,
2 & a half millenium from now, it won't be cutting edge!

they will be just as helpful and more reliable than either the Americans or Russians.

Considering the first share on the skimpy side with most
and that Russia uses French stuff on its airplanes already ...
that's a safe enough bet, huh?

thing is F-35 is a reality while the AMCA is a fantasy for now

Yeah, subtle difference though, or so it seems for many!
Despite all the disappointments, there will be an F-35?!?
Soon! ... Ah but here's that stretchable time again, what
does soon mean? USMC IOC? Done! Next IOC? AF 2016!

Soon for an AMCA fan depends on emotions : if he likes
AMCA soon is 2035, if he loves AMCA, it doesn't matter!
India will be there and waiting as always ...



Still all the best to all, Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

The Great Rafale Saga has taught me to never take it done, because whenever we did it, it took another turn....

Today is Ramnavmi, I pray to god to shower some blessings upon IAF.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

What makes you think AMCA will be F-35 rival? The whole notion is laughable. Kindly consider the timelines involved.

For some decades to come, India will always be 10-15 years behind US. By the time AMCA gets FOC, F-35 will be getting MLUs. Anyhow the current and upcoming crops are likely to be last gen fully manned fighters. Future Gens i.e. post 2060 will have autonomous or semi autonomous fighters.

F-35 has a very long line of orders. Even if India orders F-35 today, it would start receiving F-35s only after 2025 (optimistically). So while first F-35s that have rolled off the assembly line may be receiving MLUs by the time AMCA gets FOC, the time difference between FOC of AMCA and F-35 being available to India would not be big. If India has started funding AMCA today, it would at-least have IOC by 2030.

This is what would make AMCA a competitor of F-35 in INDIAN defence market. This is the reason I think that US-MIC is not going to provide any substantial help for AMCA program.


And I do not think that there would be an autonomous main fighter Aircraft ever. In my opinion, military aircrafts would evolve on the lines of civilian aircrafts having an very advanced autopilot like system requiring only pilot supervision, but human element would always be present there as drones are difficult to control over long distances and would remain difficult to control forever as this difficulty arise from fundamental problems like radius of curvature of Earth, break in satellite coverage, signal attenuation in case of clutter, and problems with secure communication. Drones would be supplementary to manned aircraft, not replacement.

 

[sathya]

Looks like the deal is about to happen in days...

But we have heard it so many time, now it doesn't look anything reliable .

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Abingdonboy @PARIKRAMA @Spectre @Taygibay

India-France Rafale deal could be finalised this month

http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumba...-this-month/story-SroENpfdcii48p5gRI76OP.html