Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

I don't think that's to be feared from Trappier's words at the 2015 results question and answers.
Dassault and the rest of the Rafale GIE want both linked so that finally, costly choices can be spread,
a sticking point in one term being balanced by an easy one in the second or vice versa.

Example : IAF wants a non-desi part integrated, say Israeli. This is a one-off cost to Dassault. You pay.
But if you buy 126-200+ Rafales under MII, it is spread over all units and becomes a small percentage.

If the deals are entirely segregated, that cost may block things by tipping the tab over Indian maximum.

Fast and fluid is the spring torrent that brings life to the immemorial immobile dry plain? *
Don't be a dam?

Good day all, Tay.

* The Yank in me would translate that poem thus : - Let's be adaptable, creative and get the job done!

Exactly this! The most unfathomable part about all this drama is the seeming de-linking of the 36 off the shelf purchase and the follow-on 90 jets to be made in India. I mean the most logical (yes yes I hear you now- this is India, logic be damned) thing would be to have a single type for about 15 billion different reasons (commonality of training, spares, procedures and simplifcation of almost everything) just being a part of this.

I mean, no one in the media seems to be questioning why exactly, it is being percieved, that this defence minister (who has zero cabinet experience and zero defence exposure) is going for two different types of fighter, they are just mindly parroting each other (who planted that intial seed is an interesting point to ponder).


If 1 Rafale is bought then you might as well buy 126, there is no point in half measures- all or nothing.

But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.

 

[Spectre]

Exactly this! The most unfathomable part about all this drama is the seeming de-linking of the 36 off the shelf purchase and the follow-on 90 jets to be made in India. I mean the most logical (yes yes I hear you now- this is India, logic be damned) thing would be to have a single type for about 15 billion different reasons (commonality of training, spares, procedures and simplifcation of almost everything) just being a part of this.

I mean, no one in the media seems to be questioning why exactly, it is being percieved, that this defence minister (who has zero cabinet experience and zero defence exposure) is going for two different types of fighter, they are just mindly parroting each other (who planted that intial seed is an interesting point to ponder).


If 1 Rafale is bought then you might as well buy 126, there is no point in half measures- all or nothing.

But alas, I have lost all faith in Parrikar to do the sensible thing, Modi is the guy for that I hope he calls his DM out on this needless circus whilst we are still young.

two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.

 

[Abingdonboy]

two words...price discovery. The deal with egyptians and qatar cannot be the benchmark and that is what dassault i is insisting on.

I'm skeptical on this fro a number of reasons but if this is the case then don't by a single Rafale, there's no sense in buying two different MMRCAs.

Parrikar is a typical bhanyia, busy bean counting but unable to see the bigger picture. With the Rafale you can fullfil the needs of the Indian industry, IAF, IN and SFC as well as keeping your sovereignty intact (which you can't really put a price on). The price descrepency really is not as large as some are making out- it certainly isn't in the billions and thus both sides are being very pedantic.

 

[Spectre]

I'm skeptical on this fro a number of reasons but if this is the case then don't by a single Rafale, there's no sense in buying two different MMRCAs.

Parrikar is a typical bhanyia, busy bean counting but unable to see the bigger picture. With the Rafale you can fullfil the needs of the Indian industry, IAF, IN and SFC as well as keeping your sovereignty intact (which you can't really put a price on). The price descrepency really is not as large as some are making out- it certainly isn't in the billions and thus both sides are being very pedantic.

Be whatever the case, unless their is a backroom plan to consciously delay and obfuscate so as to force France to withdraw the offer and thus avoid penalties, India should sign and close the deal. I agree buying only 36 will be a blunder.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

 

[AugenBlick]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

I am going to blow a lot of money on the Pâtisserie ... this better be true... also

@Abingdonboy

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

Now a few questions/speculations

*Did Sarkozi play a role in getting everyone together?

*2 N-projects = N-sub + N-Carrier ???

* FCUK the US.

Edit:
Bro please get info on how much help we will get on AMCA. (except ofcourse the expertise we acquire through manufacturing )

 

[Stephen Cohen]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

I LOVE you SO MUCH

 

[AugenBlick]

Congratulations

 

[Abingdonboy]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

I'm not going to get my hopes up too much........just yet

@Stephen Cohen

+ Although @PARIKRAMA what you have said does fit in very well with something I learned this morning

Congratulations

 

[Spectre]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

As I said yesterday, 36+18 is done. Regarding the 90 or X number involving MII there is no decision as of yet.

 

[Abingdonboy]

* FCUK the US.

Seconded

The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..

For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?

The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities

How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?

Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.

Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.

LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.

I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.

Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN


Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.

As I said yesterday, 36+18 is done. Regarding the 90 or X number involving MII there is no decision as of yet.

Again, with the off the shelf Rafale deal set in stone if this GoI goes for anything other than the Rafale for the follow-on deal then they are utter, utter fools. But once again, I will state that Dassualt is the ONLY OEM who has actually presented the MOF with a detailed and viable model for making 90+ MMRCA in India and this was confirmed by the CEO of Dassault himself- no one else, not even the much hyped Boeing is anywhere near this stage. The DM was/is using them as a bargaining chip and little more. The more one examines the Boeing/US offer the less attractive it gets. Now Carter has left India and nothing substantial has been signed whatsoever I think the writing is on the wall..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.

But we do that any way ; Isnt it

 

[Abingdonboy]

But we do that any way ; Isnt it

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Seconded


For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?


How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?


Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.


I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.


It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN


Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.

Rafale M was requested to be completely made in Merignac which we don't want.. So as a token gesture and keeping all folks pleased a very small number has to be ordered.. The idea mooted was using the follow on 18s for this purpose.. As of now IAF is on board this, but if a threat situation changes and need to expedite the Rafale M induction arise, the numbers may increase in Merignac.. But that scope is very less..

The flyaway last batch RAM and other absorbent material painting plus very small work will be in Indian line.. It's basically the post 90-95% finished product things which are requested to be done in order to also check the Indian line capabilities and testing..


Modification for Indian missiles will be done in India itself for the last batch.. RBE2 AESA not full but partially shared and will be available for any type of Missile integration as needed by India followed by due test and certification.

Media crying is expected.. Today itself a Saab article cane out after all US articles on teens.. Anyways not all contours can be divulged owing to multiple facets best kept away from public even if they make hue n cry.

LnT work is going ahead primarily in sub program.. Parallel construction of the 6 SSN and NG SSBN are being framed.. Aridhaman will float out by this year second half and it's follow on will be out in another few years.post which the bigger heavier boats comes in along with the SSNs.

The IAC2 will remain a test case to see how much USA walks the talk.. But DCNS is getting a serious look in that..

Prez Hollande may come or may not.. Probably will come for MII announcement.. Drian and Trappier would be here surely...interestingly a Doval hush hush meeting was scheduled around this or next week.. Something off the book for discrete discussion..

 

[Spectre]

Seconded


For the flyaways 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN?


How will what work bro?Delivered to India and then enter Indian workshops for minor modifications and if so what modifcations are we talking about?


Hmmm, that's how most strategic deals go but in this instance expect some SERIOUS heat from the media who will jump straight to "we got ripped off" either out of ignorance or some more nerfarious motives.


I knew something was going to happen with L&T and nuclear tech after the Jaitpur announcement and the ToT coming (to L&T) for that.


It's going to have to be Hollande himself, surely?

@Taygibay @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN


Again, not getting ahead of myself nor am I counting chickens before they hatch.

Again, with the off the shelf Rafale deal set in stone if this GoI goes for anything other than the Rafale for the follow-on deal then they are utter, utter fools. But once again, I will state that Dassualt is the ONLY OEM who has actually presented the MOF with a detailed and viable model for making 90+ MMRCA in India and this was confirmed by the CEO of Dassault himself- no one else, not even the much hyped Boeing is anywhere near this stage. The DM was/is using them as a bargaining chip and little more. The more one examines the Boeing/US offer the less attractive it gets. Now Carter has left India and nothing substantial has been signed whatsoever I think the writing is on the wall..

I don't know and neither does anyone on the forum about what's the deal with MII component. There is a gag order in place which is understandable considering the interests involved and scope for external influences/bribary/manipulation. MoD is clearly keeping the cards very close to it's chest and there is minimal interference from PMO. PMO and by extension NSA was mostly interested in closing the 36+18 which was achieved after carter left as @PARIKRAMA said other things were contingent on that deal including the reputation.

IMHO Rafale should be the top option considering all pros and cons followed closely by Advanced Hornets since the 36+18 is closed. Personally I would have preferred that the Rafale deal was scrapped in totality and we could have gone with Advanced Hornets with an option for F-35. This would have synergised well with our LCA and AMCA.