Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Armani]

@randomradio @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA

India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by the Private sector

Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.

India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.

He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”

While emphasizing that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.

“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.

Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.

The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.

Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.

Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.

--

I can't post the link, do a Google search of the title if you want. It's on defencenews.in

 

[randomradio]

True, so its not ToT. ToT is proprietary tech. Not infrastructure upgrade.

No, tools are not part of ToT. But the the usage of tools to manufacture components to the right specifications was part of ToT. If you use different tools, then HAL would have to reinvent the production process and then have the aircraft certified in France. There is also a chance that HAL could fail the certification process. Want to take such a risk?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@randomradio @Abingdonboy @Vauban @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @PARIKRAMA

India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by the Private sector

Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.

India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.

He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”

While emphasizing that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end.

“India has the need for that number of aircraft but this does not mean increasing defence budget to cater to the purchases. This can be done by reducing defence expenditure in other areas,” he stressed.

Mr. Parrikar said his ministry is in an advanced stage of giving approval to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for setting up a second assembly line for the LCA to increase the production rate from eight to 16 aircraft per year.

The Air Force is expected to induct over 100 of the improved LCA which will feature an Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, mid-air refuelling and improved electronic warfare suite in addition to other minor improvements.

Stating that HAL has currently streamlined the assembly line for production of eight aircraft per year, Mr. Parrikar said that this will absorb between 10,000 to 20,000 people in the full ecosystem.

Even as the Rafale talks are on, Mr. Parrikar had said that it is not a replacement for the much smaller MIGs which are now being phased out. With this, companies who lost out in the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest (MMRCA) have been pitching their aircraft in anticipation of a comeback into the race.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the U.S. and Saab of Sweden have recently offered to establish manufacturing plants in India and transfer technology if their fighter aircraft were selected for the Indian Air Force.

--

I can't post the link, do a Google search of the title if you want. It's on defencenews.in

We are discussing that only Bro and going hammer and tongs over last 3 or more pages...

What you feel after reading this news.. Do share your views and join the discussion..

 

[Dash]

I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..

Thats what I said, when I said I am not sure what he is saying here while staying in budget.

 

[randomradio]

$10m flyaway? Go for 1000 then- $10BN will get you a brand new air force with 55 SQNs, problem solved.

Wish it were that simple. Haha.

 

[Taygibay]

I saw it this morning mate but it makes little sense.
I'll wait for precisions but it came through your local source here :
Private Sector to Make Fighter Jets for India by Year-End: Defence Minister | Indian Defence News

Just check that link, people!
Here are his quotes :
Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, "It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals."
Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."

That's because he said more PLANTS were coming not more aircraft types.
Plants, not planes!

Again a media spin doctors' embellishment IMHoO.

Have a great day, Tay.

 

[Armani]

@Picdelamirand-oil @PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @halloweene @Taygibay @Vauban @Armani

There could also be a third MMRCA line, depending on costs. So a Russian jet is practically guaranteed, possibly the Mig-35.

If a 3rd line materializes, there'll be a whole bunch of possibilities on the table.

Line #1 - Rafale
Line #2 - Light MRCA, possibly Gripen or LSA
Line #3 - MiG-35??

But honestly, I don't see the 3rd line for MMRCA coming. Atleast not yet. Why because even by the time the 2nd MRCA begins local production, the FGFA will be entering service and AMCA could be test-flying. Don't you think the lobby would be too hard to concentrate more on 5th gen developments?

 

[raktaka]

That's one of the reasons why MMRCA was canceled. The proper procedures were not outlined correctly. Dassault did everything that was asked for, so you have to blame the MoD for incomplete procedure.

That's why Dassault is still in and HAL is out.

HAL will crawl back in, Dassault will find it difficult. The new MMRCA requirement is proof of that.

This is outside Dassault's control. This type of risk exists regardless of what HAL or Dassault does. Dassault won't be penalized if the employees stir up problems, that will be HAL's HR department's problem.

Dassault's job was quality, not day to day running of HAL.

How can assuming executive control over HAL ensure that ? It cannot. Its DGAQA which is the quality assurance and inspection agency. Dassault could have partnered with them and posted their trained employees as honorary DGAQA inspectors. Something similar happens in the US.

Now you know one of the reasons why MMRCA failed. Dassault demanded executive control after CNC said Dassault should deliver quality. Else Dassault would never have asked for it.

"Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed. The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets."

CNC did not agree to it.

IF CNC did not agree, there would have been a very solid Rational behind it. What was that ?

There was inbuilt mechanism to prevent delay in ToT. It was a bit complicated. HAL can blame Dassault for not supplying ToT and Dassault can blame HAL for not absorbing tech in time. A study would determine who was at fault and penalize the right party.

HAL never asked for anything from Dassault. As mentioned above, HAL wanted to be the guarantor.

ok.

IAF cannot do that. IN cannot either. Only MoD deals with contractors and subcontractors. IAF is simply the end user. IAF tried it once upon a time, and that was rejected. That's when IAF wanted an Air Marshal to lead HAL.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has made a proposal to the government that one of its air marshals be appointed as the chief of the aerospace PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

"We have proposed that a senior IAF three-star officer be considered for the post," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne told a press conference here.

This was rejected by MoD. HAL said IAF doesn't know anything about running an aerospace industry, even though IAF said the USAF does the same, a Lt Gen heads the F-35 program with executive powers.

Wrong. I have work with both IN and IAF and can say with personal experience that working with IN is a FAR FAR more pleasurable experience than working with IAF. I have managed programs for them both and I have seen how IN assumes responsibility and seeks to find creative solution and demonstrate impressive leadership and Program Management. IAF OTOH demonstrate arrogance, high handedness and act as if they are doing you a favour and then bitch and cry when things don't go their way.

IAF should have appointed an officer as Program Manager and not as Chief of HAL That is what IN does. It does not demand they be made head of Mazgoan dock

Far more than you do.

I am not interested in a dick measuring contest. I am happy if you do. I acknowledge you as a very knowledgeable member.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..

I've said it before- he is letting his inexpereince show IMO and adopting negotiation tactics that seem to be inspired by the fanboys on defence forums.

It might payoff but it also might explode in his (and India's) face and lead to a(nother) total mess.

 

[randomradio]

If a 3rd line materializes, there'll be a whole bunch of possibilities on the table.

Line #1 - Rafale
Line #2 - Light MRCA, possibly Gripen or LSA
Line #3 - MiG-35??

But honestly, I don't see the 3rd line for MMRCA coming. Atleast not yet. Why because even by the time the 2nd MRCA begins local production, the FGFA will be entering service and AMCA could be test-flying. Don't you think the lobby would be too hard to concentrate more on 5th gen developments?

Yeah, a third line is too much. I would be happy if they select Rafale and Mig-35. The Mig-35 can be connected to the FGFA program, electronics.

The Mig-35 configuration has changed significantly after the MMRCA rejection.

 

[Dash]

I saw it this morning mate but it makes little sense.
I'll wait for precisions but it came through your local source here :
Private Sector to Make Fighter Jets for India by Year-End: Defence Minister | Indian Defence News

Just check that link, people!
Here are his quotes :
Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, "It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals."
Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."

That's because he said more PLANTS were coming not more aircraft types.
Plants, not planes!

Again a media spin doctors' embellishment IMHoO.

Have a great day, Tay.

Sir, aap party mein late ayeho (hope you understand hindi).. just go back a page or two and you can see how exhausted @PARIKRAMA is. He didnt even have lunch.

 

[raktaka]

No, tools are not part of ToT. But the the usage of tools to manufacture components to the right specifications was part of ToT. If you use different tools, then HAL would have to reinvent the production process and then have the aircraft certified in France. There is also a chance that HAL could fail the certification process. Want to take such a risk?

ToT will be the unique process Dassault has. But IP cannot be claimed under ToT. The manufacturing process would not be considered ToT.

HAL will have to anyway use a new production process for Rafale and will have to go in for FAI (First Article Inspection) as its SOP. That is not a Risk, its a risk mitigation technique. Product, process and Quality Certification is a must, again that is not a risk but a risk mitigation process.

 

[randomradio]

HAL will crawl back in, Dassault will find it difficult. The new MMRCA requirement is proof of that.

The new MMRCA line has nothing to do with Dassault. And it's meant for the private sector. HAL shoul dbe happy with LCA, AMCA and FGFA.

IF CNC did not agree, there would have been a very solid Rational behind it. What was that ?

They did not trust HAL to deliver quality, so they wanted Dassault to be the guarantor.

Wrong. I have work with both IN and IAF and can say with personal experience that working with IN is a FAR FAR more pleasurable experience than working with IAF. I have managed programs for them both and I have seen how IN assumes responsibility and seeks to find creative solution and demonstrate impressive leadership and Program Management. IAF OTOH demonstrate arrogance, high handedness and act as if they are doing you a favour and then bitch and cry when things don't go their way.

How does that mean IAF and IN are in control?

IN have program managers, IAF don't. You have a problem right there.

But I agree IN is much better to work with.

IAF should have appointed an officer as Program Manager and not as Chief of HAL

That also failed back in the 90s.

ToT will be the unique process Dassault has. But IP cannot be claimed under ToT. The manufacturing process would not be considered ToT.

There is no IP in ToT. Dassault is giving a license, not IP.

HAL will have to anyway use a new production process for Rafale and will have to go in for FAI (First Article Inspection) as its SOP. That is not a Risk, its a risk mitigation technique. Product, process and Quality Certification is a must, again that is not a risk but a risk mitigation process.

Dassault gave two choices-
-Do what we tell you to do and get Rafales quickly.
-Do what you want and have the aircraft re-certified.

HAL was allowed to choose. But of course, neither happened.

 

[Armani]

Yeah, a third line is too much. I would be happy if they select Rafale and Mig-35. The Mig-35 can be connected to the FGFA program, electronics.

The Mig-35 configuration has changed significantly after the MMRCA rejection.

I'm starting to think...what can we get for IN's MiG-29K MLU? For sure we can incorporate the FGA-29 AESA with GaN, the new OLS systems, maybe uprated engines?

I don't know about ToT (we can get enough to upgrade the planes in India much like M2K-5) but, as far as having pure technology goes...there doesn't seem to be much that the MiG-35 could get us that a potential 29K MLU wouldn't.

We gotta play smart with the purchases and the FGFA program combined with our already-inducted 29K fleet can get us viable access to both Tikhomirov and Phazotron-developed radars, as well as Saturn/Lyulka and Klimov engine techs. Can't do too many favors to the Russians. I'd say we should fully leverage what we have already committed to - that alone would get us a long way.

 

[Didact]

Ok people here is what i am thinking,,,

Let me imagine here a beautiful scenario..

Imagine there are 3 new lines under MII

Line 1 Rafale
Line 2 Gripen NG/F18s
Line 3 Mig35/Su35.. anything Russian

Now Line 1 Tie up partner is a pvt sector company/ consortium
Line 2 also same as line 1
Line 3 - Russia would insist on HAL

Each of these lines will carry minimum guarantees of at least 100 Jets..
In all probability the line will bear "assembled from Kits" and then may be later licensed production with partial localisation

So the big question comes here

IF MII liens are decided within next 1 year what will be the price to start these lines

Line 1 Rafales off the shelf with offsets funds MII line for Rafale
Line 2: We need to directly fund the manufacturing line or a similar 36 purchase to fund
Line 3 same case

Imagine Line needs say Euro 3 Bn then x 3 = Euro 9 Bn outlay just for lines (thats offsets)
Imagine another Euro 4 Bn each for all 3 lines off the shelf -- thats Euro 12 Bn

In simple words just to facilitate that line manufacturing is initiated we need to make provision for Euro 9 Bn or USD 10 Bn
Can anybody understand how much money we are talking for a 3 line setup need?

IF we dont do that the 3 lines will require a funding for setup meaning financial cost when borrowed from any financial institution.. Thats of course gonna add up to our purchased cost in case of deferred payments with just signing amount...

So for a successful outlay for MII we need to provision USD 10 Bn within next 12 months to pay for this...

Possible YES, practical NO

I think DM MP is bluffing here just to add pressure..

This is purely a bureaucrats description of the MoD.

There are three groups of bureaucrats wrt the Rafale deal in the MoD:

1. The group of (self professed) patriots that are scrupulous about funds and do not want the 'overpriced' Rafale. They are also worried about the CAG doing a 2G on them, and are more worried about their careers being derailed.

2. The group of Nationalists (self avowed) that feel that SH/EF/SAAB/MiG would be the better option. Basically an euphemism for lobbyists funded by the respective corporations, in service of the GOI.

3. The group of Rafale supporters, the tiniest of the groups.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, the IAF is the frustrated, mute spectator; their aviator sunglasses the only instrument to secure their classified anguish from the vultures.

There have been a few veiled allegations of attempts of internal sabotage during the negotiation for the MMRCA, bringing with it the possibility of a corruption scandal.

Then there's the very real possibility of CAG ripping into this proposed deal, using the MMRCA price estimates, similar to what it did in the 2G scam case. This is part of why there is such recalcitrance amongst the bureaucracy in the MoD, even amongst the supporters of the Rafale.

It's a hot potato, unfortunately it only gets hotter as time passes. Juxtapose that with the vested or genuine opposition to this deal, and there is now a very real possibility that if this deal is not cleared by this year end, this will never get through.