Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Dash]

But there is in this context you mentioned of past weights that still burden the beast, a lesson if
we remember the original full lot pricing. Time ( elapsed ) and change(s /as in new demands ) add to cost.
To correct this, the proper breakdown would imply a sliding rule pricing established ab initio.
In other words, you negotiate in the first deal the returns each additional tranche will get you.
36 = 30% offsets as is international norm / 36 more get you 38% over the 72 and two last increments
of 20 bring you 6% + 6% for a total of 50% offsets over 112 machines compared to the MMRCA's 108.

I agree, however a sliding rule pricing ab initio is not quite accurate as you rightly mentioned while new parameters are getting added. However I see logic in your calculation and the logic in MOD's offer vis-aviz a straight forward 50% payment offer for a 50% offset. Perhaps while committing 50% value upfront, I see you are taking care of inflation and make it a lucrative rider for bypassing a larger order in order to achieve the goal. I see sense in it. Tell me what you feel.

That was in fact not meant to help the argument as you shrewdly noticed but rather as a fair play
warning that if you disputed the linearity of the facts, I'd slap you with the glove of facts_quotes_and_citations
and proceed to win the laugh-in-your-face duel to which you'd have thus been called!
It is so comforting that your being a sane person exempt of trolling avoided us the indignity, thanks!

Tayji, I say this, the indignity would have been equally mine, if it was ever intended to malign someone's true credentials.

Just for fun, if the only criterion was usefulness, how many Rafales would you get for the IAF?

Very tricky question. But I will stand by my earlier number for 4 squadrons. In terms of pure usefulness.

Credit to original poster Loke

http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg


@Taygibay @Vauban @Abingdonboy
From June 2011... Look at green underlined portions
emergency 11g's
canard reduced landing speed to 115 knots ~213 kmph
can operate from 1300 feet or 400m runway
Supercruise at 1.4Mach with 6 MICA - Rafale M
Supercruise at 1.4 M with 4 Mica and 1250L belly drop tank

All this when it had RBE2 PESA and M88-2 model implying older Rafale of 2011...

I am waiting eagerly to see next phase of data with say M88-4 of present models and perhaps the next engine variant based changes..

Are you a BRFite?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Are you a BRFite?

thats also there posted by austin.. original source is loke in keypubs
no i m not in brf.. browse at times to read views.. some folks like indranil posts good stuff.. with austin.. and some other old brfcrew ppl..

 

[Dash]

thats also there posted by austin.. original source is loke in keypubs
no i m not in brf.. browse at times to read views.. some folks like indranil posts good stuff.. with austin.. and some other old brfcrew ppl..

That I know. But just guessed you could be one. There was something else that you wrote in Dassult sticky I believe got posted in BRF but didn't get much traction, but got posted indeed

 

[Taygibay]

So 4 squadrons would be 80+ including attritions?
That's close to what Abingdon, Parik and I gave
as the mid to long term goal for the buy / deals.

Think 36 + 18 options plus a second buy of 36 later.
54 + 36 equals ... you got it : 90! 108 if 5 full sqdns.

Not so far apart, huh? Tay.

 

[Dash]

So 4 squadrons would be 80+ including attritions?
That's close to what Abingdon, Parik and I gave
as the mid to long term goal for the buy / deals.

Think 36 + 18 options plus a second buy of 36 later.
54 + 36 equals ... you got it : 90!

Not so far apart, huh? Tay.

That's what I would love to have but that'sjust us. I have never said that 36 is a desired number to be worth to IAF in terms of its uusefulness from a quantity pov. But it doesn't deprive of the quality either.

My effort there from has always been to find the calculation behind the numbers rather than proposing what's out of context and I believe, if we can find sense which we have almost but don't acknowledge due our personal reasons, then we can discuss about follow ons.

But I guess our approach is to evaluate mrca as it's always been in absolute binary terms.

 

[Taygibay]

But I guess our approach is to evaluate mrca as it's always been in absolute binary terms.

Ah matey, don't be harsh and shrug me off thus!

My approach does take in M/MRCA ... because it was the initial requirement and more so because
the way it was garbled influences the present situation, that's all!

If we had a fixed procurement number for the Tejas, if we had a frozen timeframe for AMCA, if we
knew precisely what tactical book the IAF will draw for its Rafales, it would be almost too easy . . .
and certainly not generate as many internet/fora pages.

Working from context is all we can do. Dassault can produce any number you want but only once ...
it knows what that number is? Can't sign a fixed price for a variable number of units, can we?

That's why I wanted you to be specific. Draw a personal interpretation of things to come and I'll be
glad to debate from there?

Read you soon, Tay.

 

[doublemaster]

First Learn to Comprehend Secondly If Don't Know Facts of the Deal Don't Quote Me Next time

First go read again what i posted. I am criticizing government here for faking and getting credit with cheap publicity.
U goback and read all the news of April-2015 when modi visited france.

 

[cerberus]

First go read again what i posted. I am criticizing government here for faking and getting credit with cheap publicity.
U goback and read all the news of April-2015 when modi visited france.

Talk Me on Technical Points I Rather Stay Way From Political Terms .On Technical Terms This Deal is Better

 

[PARIKRAMA]

++++++++++++++
Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....

(Take with bags of salt )

1. Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
2. Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
3. Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
4. The customizations may see some more cost trimming
5. The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
6. Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
7. Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
8. Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
9. Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
11. 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
    
12. It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr

India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.

Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015

This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.

“During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.

Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn


However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

“We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.

Thats the 1 out of 3 i said

The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.

The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with American AESA (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.

American AESA -on Rafales

@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale

 

[rockstarIN]

• The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.

• Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn

• Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others

• Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base

The spares for how many years? 20 years life span?

 

[anant_s]

++++++++++++++
Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....

(Take with bags of salt )

1. Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
2. Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
3. Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
4. The customizations may see some more cost trimming
5. The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
6. Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
7. Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
8. Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
9. Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
11. 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
    
12. It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr

India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.

Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015

This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.

“During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.

Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn


However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

“We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.

Thats the 1 out of 3 i said

The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.

The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with American AESA (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.

American AESA -on Rafales
View attachment 292931

@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale

if true (especially the EFT part), this could be the a news saucier than shenanigans of certain miss Leone.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

The spares for how many years? 20 years life span?

its quoted at an avg 5% consumption of flyaway cost per year.. Most probably for 7-10 years post which localisation will take care of that aspect or another 5 years will be added via a separate deal..

Originally it was for 10 years and we wanted 15 at the same price but then it was like almost Euro 28 Mn per jet or like Euro 1Bn+ for 36 jets for 10 years and then it came to Euro 500 Mn approx for 5 years...

We may finally agree for 7-10 years at the same price of Euro 500 Mn finally after negotiations (where now we want for 10 years same price of 500 Mn Euros...)

The point of contention being the initial years the new jet has less spare issues but it comes with more wear and tear over multiple years of usage. So 5% avg cannot be used for first 5 years and we are targeting 10 years at the same cost.

 

[GURU DUTT]

if true (especially the EFT part), this could be the a news saucier than shenanigans of certain miss Leone.

Baki every think is fine but what does that means ?

 

[anant_s]

Baki every think is fine but what does that means ?

PS back

 

[Blue Marlin]

so when can india conclude the deal then. i have lost track of it's negotiations.

++++++++++++++
Update... Source based..

Rafale deal is a big go....

(Take with bags of salt )

1. Base year negotiation 2015 fixed finally from earlier negotiated 2011
2. Price brought down to Euro 8Bn from initial Euro 11.5 Bn (with 2011 as base year)
3. Further negotiations to trim down price to Euro 7.2-7.3 Bn implying another 700-800 Mn Euros
4. The customizations may see some more cost trimming
5. The support package + infrastructure package getting re negotiated.
6. Jet+Weapons loaded is capped at Euro 100 Mn or Euro 3.6 Bn
7. Effectively another 3.6 Bn is for support +infra+ training+ TCO+ spares+customizations+others
8. Cost of infrastructure in terms of materials and manhours now being cited to reduce per base cost from earlier Euro 1.2 Bn per base
9. Delivery schedule from 36 months from 2019 (3 years) and will be completed 2022 (5.5 years)
10. MII part resolved. India has informed French Government MII needs to be done urgently owing to other competitive offers.. The surprise competitors are - Eurofighter (backed by Germany and UK) and F18s (USA/Boeing). Decision will be and implemented max to max by December 2016 for work to start immediately.. (any 1 of the 3 with first preference being Dassault)
11. 10th point.. Shocker competition.... Angela Merkel on her last visit emphasized less on Submarines more on EF make in India.. Seems sweeter includes an AESA radar of NG for complete TOT + other considerable goodies with tech sharing for EJ 200 and EJ230 joint effort with TVC to power AMCA.
    
12. It seems DM MP has personally informed Jean-Yves Le Drian about it when they met in New Delhi and said GOI wants a firm MII decision implemented by max Dec 2016 with start of work immediately. The EF offer in hush hush mode is the second trump card besides Russian FGFA program+ more MKI. DA seems to have fallen in line for threat of losing the lucrative 200+ jet market and that too to a European Rival...

So India's final cost working expected around Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3Bn or at Euro/INR 77 its Rs 55450 Crs - Rs 56210 Crs
++++++++++++++++++++++++


@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @Vauban @Taygibay @Nilgiri @cerberus @anant_s
Shocker new things.. Seems EF MII is a big trump card which GOI/MOD held very close for ultimate act for Negotiations... But all this is more or less resolved..

Good to see MII part clarity for starting by Dec 2016.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here comes the
confirmation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

nuclear capable Rafale , fitted with American AESA deal set to close at lower price of Rs 60,000cr

India and France are expected to close the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation with the signing of an inter-governmental agreement including the commercial contract between the two countries next month. The deal is expected to be clinched at about Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India during the previous UPA government with 2011 being the base price year.

Top government sources said after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

the base years got reversed here 11.6 Bn as per 2011 and 8 Bn as per 2015

This would have been the price of 36 fighters had India purchased planes at the cost quoted in the cancelled 126 multi-medium role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in which Rafale had emerged as the lowest bidder in comparison with Eurofighter.

“During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed,” a senior government official said.

Thats in line with what i said so expected price is Euro 7.2 Bn-7.3 Bn


However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

“We expect the deal to close around Rs 60,000 crore with Rafale with first deliveries in 2019. The French company also has a separate option of manufacturing the fighter in the country under the Make in India rubric. For that Rafale will have to contest with Boeing F-18 and Eurofighter in case their respective governments allow them to manufacture these platforms in India,” a senior official said.

Thats the 1 out of 3 i said

The deal was scheduled to be concluded during French president Francois Hollande’s visit as the guest of honour at the Republic Day celebrations on January 26 but was delayed due to protracted negotiations between both sides.

The nuclear-capable Rafale will be fitted with American AESA (active electronically scanned phased array) radar, top-of-the-line beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.

American AESA -on Rafales
View attachment 292931

@Taygibay @Vauban You will love hearing American Aesa on Rafale