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Current Tensions in Xinjiang-China

I bet you haven't read my previous posts, for instance this one.

Please do so and study more before blahblah.

I'm talking to you and to those who thanked you for your joke.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your response, which I saw today, and the citation of your earlier post. It was indeed useful, and is appreciated.

On the other hand, I hope that you do not think that the use of pejoratives and trash talk, such as 'blahblah', and calling my post 'your joke', in any way strengthens your logic. This was unnecessary incivility and uncalled for. If you wish to clarify your position, or express your point of view, it is possible to do so without insulting words or personal attacks.

I am taking the liberty of proceeding on the basis that you are interested in a civil discussion, without these unnecessary embellishments.

Regarding your arguments, let me explain that my position is not identical to A1Kaid, although I am indebted to him for bringing to my attention information about the early history of the Turkic peoples and their probable development subsequently.

The background is this. I have spent a significant part of the last few decades reading about the developments in those parts of Asia currently described as Iran, Afghanistan, the CIS states, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrghyzstan, eastern Turkestan, currently known as Xinjiang, and Pakistan and India. My interest was in the interlinkages of these regions with Iranian and Indian history, defined broadly; this is without prejudice to recent claims that Indus Civilisation is to be studied in detail in distinction to mainstream Indian history. I neither accept nor deny that position, since there has been insufficient analysis of what is involved. Suffice it to say that my interest in Xinjiang extends to the region only to the extent that it has a bearing on the history of the regions mentioned earlier.

In summary, my understanding is well defined by you, but indirectly, in your three caveats, marked as three 'BTW's, an unusual usage but an acceptable equivalent of bullets. It is this: that in the period approximately from 1500 BC to roughly the inception of the Christian era, the following sequence of events occurred.
  • Earliest records and mentions in history, or archaeological indications are that a mixed steppe people, speaking Indo-Iranian, thereafter eastern Iranian, ranged the steppes.
  • These mixed nomads had many names, one name being Scythian. There are equivalents in Iranian, in ancient Indian references, and undoubtedly in Chinese historical annals as well.
  • To the north and north-east of the Scythians, a people known as the Tocharians occupied the land space that is the western part of the region now called Xinjiang.
  • These people are in fact identified with the mummies that you have mentioned in your cited post. Please note that I am not suggested Turkic occupation of this region at these very early stages.
  • The Tocharians appear to have been tall, fair, bearded, and their mummies include blonde and red-haired physical specimens. The textile used by them is found staggeringly far away as well, in roughly contemporaneous funeral remains, to the west of the Black Sea.
  • This is cited by some as a strong indication that trade in these early times was far more extensive than we had imagined so far.
  • These Tocharians apparently spoke a language which was not Indo-Iranian leave alone east Iranian, but older in the tree of Indo-European languages. It is therefore speculated that they were the eastern-most branch of the Indo-European set of language users.
  • Please note that ethnicity and race are dangerous and misleading categories, and it is preferable to deal with language usage as being more accurate a category. I subscribe to this point of view, and would not like to be thought to be emphasising the apparently proto-European physique of these Tocharians.
  • You are aware that the aftermath of Alexander's expedition to the eastern parts of the Achaemenid Empire, until his death in Babylon, was around 340 BC.
  • He was succeeded by a short period of rule in the region corresponding to Afghanistan and Ferghana (Tajikistan) by his successors and thereafter by Greek kingdoms. You may be wondering what this has to do with Xinjiang. Please bear with me. There is a connection.
  • The Indo-Greek, or, if you prefer, the Bactrian Greek kingdoms were replaced by the domination of Scythian and Parthian tribes which swept into the region around 250 BC and subsequently.
  • What is of interest to us in this discussion is that they were apparently driven out of their steppeland homes by the incursion of the Yueh Chi, or Moon Sect, one of the five ruling sects of the Tocharian.
  • At this stage, when we look for an explanation into Chinese historican records, which are the only ones of any worth at that point of time, regardless of their scant coverage of western regions to the west of the areas under actual royal or imperial rule.
  • It appears that the Xiong Nu (I am using this spelling consistently to be clear, but have no objection to any other that might be proposed, such as Hsiung Nu), after a period of hostility with contemporary Chinese states, had suffered a succession of defeats, split into two, the Southern branch becoming a direct appendage of the Chinese state or states, the northern one striving to preserve its integrity and independence.
  • It appears that the northern branch pushed westward to avoid the overlordship of Chinese states, and clashed with the Tocharians. The Tocharians were defeated in a series of encounters, their king killed, and they were in turn driven west. They too split into two or more groups, one turning south and staying on the fringes of their former dominions, the other pushing west and putting pressure on the original steppe dwellers.
  • These were the Yueh Chi, and they pushed the Scythians and their east Iranian allies south and then south east. These Scythian incursions finished off the Bactrian Greek kingdoms in a short while.
  • The period from 260 or 250 BC to the beginning of the Christian millennium is marked by repeated waves of invasion of these formerly nomadic tribes from the steppes, first under the direct pressure of the Yueh Chi, themselves under successive waves of pressure from the Xiong Nu being compelled to move further and further away from their former homeland.
  • Please note that this coincides exactly with the facts cited by you in your three BTW bullets.
  • It appears to me, and this is a personal evaluation from putting together my account, which is limited to information regarding the expulsion of the Tocharian/Yueh Chi within these 200 or so years, with accounts of the rise of the Turkic people, already presented in detail, that till around 300 AD, the areas which are today western Xinjiang were occupied by the Xiong Nu. They are, as described by you, if I remember your cited post correctly, a mixed group with predominantly Mongolian ethnicity, but with elements of several other nomadic people from the north.
  • Finally, it would appear that these occupants were gradually forced out or forced to submit to the emerging Turkic tribes entering from the north, and bearing south-east in their direction of incursion.
  • My understanding is that major Han control of these regions commenced in the Ming dynasty.

My knowledge of the facts and information covered in the last three bullets above is secondary and derivative. However, I have with me accounts of the first Chinese expeditions to the west, and the conclusions of the leader, which was roughly contemporaneous with the events that I have described.

If you want, this same account can be referenced and wherever possible the Chinese resources dealing with them introduced and presented in an academically sounder manner than the bullet points I have used to summarise. However, as I have been asked to attend to some urgent tasks and have to travel out of location for the purpose, if you sincerely want this, please allow me till mid-September (it looks as if most of August will be taken up with fire-fighting!).

On the other hand, if you prefer to reject this with a slighting word or two, and insist that we adhere rigidly to your views, that is fine. I am available for a civil discourse, if you have the inclination for it.

Regards,

'Joe S.'
 
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A friend came back from china and was amazed at the amount of new masjid in china.....








These chinese must really be anti muslim if there going about building masjids

My friend by building Mosque/Masjids does not indicate that China is for muslims people ,Please go to US ,UK and India and you will find way more Mosque/Masjids there then in China? Come on man China is killing Muslims and whole world knows about it .

I would just say that we Pakistanis need to think hard as we depend greatly on China for our defence need.

H

H
 
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My friend by building Mosque/Masjids does not indicate that China is for muslims people ,Please go to US ,UK and India and you will find way more Mosque/Masjids there then in China? Come on man China is killing Muslims and whole world knows about it .

I would just say that we Pakistanis need to think hard as we depend greatly on China for our defence need.

H

H

hmmm.... any jehad against China? it is time China can review its foreign policy?
 
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Joe Shearer,

what do you want to say? are you really an Indian? do you know our history? are not there so many races in India? are not there so many diversified regions in India with different historical backgrounds? is not South Indian part Indian? is not north Indian part Indian? Is not north east Indian part Indian? :)

i understand why are you lecturing at length. but you dont represent us. you should know that. :)
 
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Uighur leader says 10,000 'disappeared' in China unrest.


TOKYO: Exiled Uighur leader Rebiya Kadeer said Wednesday that nearly 10,000 people ‘disappeared in one night’ during ethnic unrest in the Chinese city of Urumqi early this month.

‘Close to 10,000 people in Urumqi disappeared in one night. Where did those people go?’ she said in Japan, speaking in her native language through a translator. ‘If they died, where did they go?’

Kadeer, 62, the US-based head of the World Uighur Congress, charged that ‘the Chinese government is trying to destroy the Uighur people. I want to tell the international community about our situation.’

Beijing accuses the mother-of-11 of being a ‘criminal’ who instigated the unrest pitting Uighurs against Han Chinese in China’s Xinjiang region, which the government says left 197 people dead.

Kadeer charged that ‘the responsibility lies with the authorities who changed what was a peaceful demonstration into a violent riot.’

‘For Uighurs, taking part in demonstrations is like committing suicide,’ she added, speaking at a Tokyo press conference.

She was also ‘perplexed and disappointed’ by the US response to ethnic unrest in China this month, describing it as ‘somewhat cold.’

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...0%2C000-disappeared-in-china-unrest-zj-07
 
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Uighur leader says 10,000 'disappeared' in China unrest.


TOKYO: Exiled Uighur leader Rebiya Kadeer said Wednesday that nearly 10,000 people ‘disappeared in one night’ during ethnic unrest in the Chinese city of Urumqi early this month.

‘Close to 10,000 people in Urumqi disappeared in one night. Where did those people go?’ she said in Japan, speaking in her native language through a translator. ‘If they died, where did they go?’

Kadeer, 62, the US-based head of the World Uighur Congress, charged that ‘the Chinese government is trying to destroy the Uighur people. I want to tell the international community about our situation.’

Beijing accuses the mother-of-11 of being a ‘criminal’ who instigated the unrest pitting Uighurs against Han Chinese in China’s Xinjiang region, which the government says left 197 people dead.

Kadeer charged that ‘the responsibility lies with the authorities who changed what was a peaceful demonstration into a violent riot.’

‘For Uighurs, taking part in demonstrations is like committing suicide,’ she added, speaking at a Tokyo press conference.

She was also ‘perplexed and disappointed’ by the US response to ethnic unrest in China this month, describing it as ‘somewhat cold.’

DAWN.COM | World | Uighur leader says 10,000 'disappeared' in China unrest

This same lying ****** who OPENLY LIED ABOUT 800 Uyighers were murdered in Guangdong..... This terrorist ****** who IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THIS DEATH, HATRED, DESTRUCTION is again caught lying.

There was over a thousand who were ARRESTED and UNDERGOING INTERROGATION to see their involvement.

Japan made a BIG MISTAKE (AGAIN) by stirring up trouble by 'allowing' her to spread more of her lies. REBIYA KADEER's LIES HAVE BEEN RECORDED ON FILM --- AFTER --- THE FACT, SO THERE IS NO EXCUSE "she didn't know" that she was lying. I hope the Japanese don't fall for her lies. But with 'hononary whites' you never know..... :crazy:
 
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My friend by building Mosque/Masjids does not indicate that China is for muslims people ,Please go to US ,UK and India and you will find way more Mosque/Masjids there then in China? Come on man China is killing Muslims and whole world knows about it .

I would just say that we Pakistanis need to think hard as we depend greatly on China for our defence need.

H

H

That is the most ignorant comment coming from a Pakistani. Do you know muslims murder thousands of people in Asia - yet Chinese people (MILLIONS OF WHOM ARE ALSO MUSLIM) still forgive them???

Have you every lived in China? Do you speak the language? Are you talking out of your arse?

I bet the answer is: NO, NO, YES. :pakistan::china::angel:
 
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That is the most ignorant comment coming from a Pakistani. Do you know muslims murder thousands of people in Asia - yet Chinese people (MILLIONS OF WHOM ARE ALSO MUSLIM) still forgive them???

Have you every lived in China? Do you speak the language? Are you talking out of your arse?

I bet the answer is: NO, NO, YES. :pakistan::china::angel:

I have definitely not lived in China
I definitely don't speak the language
but according to you if i am talking out of my arse then you can only understand that language hence you silly reply .Mind your language:angry:

My comment was a general observation and what i had pointed out is one cannot measure building of Masjids and Mosques as an indicator for any country to be pro muslims.

We can see that alot of muslims are getting killed in China. It may be a conspiracy of the west to slow China's economy down but in the end it is our muslim people who are getting killed. It is not different then Muslim getting killed in US, UK, India.

H:pakistan:
 
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I have definitely not lived in China
I definitely don't speak the language
but according to you if i am talking out of my arse then you can only understand that language hence you silly reply .Mind your language:angry:

My comment was a general observation and what i had pointed out is one cannot measure building of Masjids and Mosques as an indicator for any country to be pro muslims.

We can see that alot of muslims are getting killed in China. It may be a conspiracy of the west to slow China's economy down but in the end it is our muslim people who are getting killed. It is not different then Muslim getting killed in US, UK, India.

H:pakistan:

(1) Since when does Chinese become "your" people?

(2) Where did you get your facts that "alot of muslims are getting killed in China"?

(3) Do you know in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, Pakistan, USA, etc -- Muslims tend to murder non-muslims more than non-muslims murder muslims? Have you ever hear of the massacre of Chinese (both muslim and non) by Uighyrs??? How about in Malaysia in 1989? How about in Indonesia? How about in Philippines when muslims murder innocent people? How about in Thailand when muslims murder innocent people?

The truth is I helped the muslim cause, but so many are COLOR-BLIND (or rather Islam-blind). They don't realize how hypocritical they are -- say they don't support terrorism but they commit it, say they support good acts but they commit evil acts, complain their are being oppressed when they oppress non-muslims.

Truth hurts.

China treats minorities PREFERENTIALLY and holds back retaliation. Not just Chinese, but Philippinos, Thais, Japanese, and even Indians. Imagine if we retaliated -- think what would happen.

But I don't let that bother me because I know SOME muslims are humane. I volunteer my time at many places DEFENDING muslim rights (like wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com) and here. I'm glad some people are sensible, but I really suggest you learn Chinese and visit (and live) in China for at least a year -- go around, talk to as many people, interact with families, see for yourself!

Before I visited China, I too had false misconceptions of China (due to western media). I'll say it again: Minorities (both religious and ethnic) are given preferential treatment. Here in the west, minorities are only given lip-service. :cheers: :pakistan::china::usflag::pdf:
 
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Excuse me Mr JS...I would be greatly pleased if you try and comprehend the import of my remarks...

It highlighrs just one fact that immigration and assimilation of a race or peoples do not make them outsiders...

It is not in the case of Tukic/Uighurs nor it is the case in India with the Muslims...

It goes to the extent of proving that the remark which I replied to is nt quite correct ...

Saying and proving that Immigration (Not deliberate like the Incentive induced immigration of the Hans to TAR and the East Turkesan), is a natural phenomenon and these lame excuses is as wrong as it is in the case of PRC as it is with India...

Thank you

@Vandemataram

I am sorry, I did not get this from your remarks, and may have misunderstood the intention. Presumably we are both of the belief that all Indians are worth equal attention, irrespective of their religion or ethnic origin. As long as you are not being critical of patriotic Indians who happen to be of a particular religious confession, I have no problem.

Having said which, I regret to have to point out that according to the records, and according to the best historical information available, your point with regard to Xinjiang is back to front. The Uighurs here represent the existing population, relative to the ethnic Chinese; or perhaps a better way of putting it would be to say that the Uighurs are the earlier immigrants, and the Chinese are the later.

I am inclined to agree with your basic principle and to conclude that the ethnic Chinese immigrants have a perfect right to exist in peace in Xinjiang, without being attacked by earlier migrants. This may not have been the conclusion that you expected, but you will agree that your logic drives us in that direction.

With regards,

'Joe S.'
 
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We can see that alot of muslims are getting killed in China. It may be a conspiracy of the west to slow China's economy down but in the end it is our muslim people who are getting killed. It is not different then Muslim getting killed in US, UK, India.

H:pakistan:

More non muslims where killed during the riots then muslims......i hope you know that simple fact.
 
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Road to heaven? China forced girls to wed soldiers
Michael Sheridian, THE SUNDAY TIMES 3 August 2009, 12:45am IST

The film’s title, ‘8,000 Girls Ascend the Heavenly Mountain’, suggests that Chinese audiences will see a tale of joy when it is aired on

television this autumn.

It dramatises the lives of thousands of girls aged 13 to 19 who went to China’s remote far west in the 1950s to follow soldiers sent to colonise the turbulent Muslim region. In real life it was a trip to purgatory. As shooting for the film unfolds in Beijing under the watchful gaze of party censors, an astonishing story of mass deception, forced marriages and suicides has come to light.

Women have come forward to tell how they were lured to China’s new frontier by false promises of
training and education — only to find themselves locked in barracks and coerced into marrying soldiers.
Chinese journalists have also discovered that Chairman Mao Tse-tung approved the dispatch of 900 prostitutes from the brothels of Shanghai to undergo “thought reform”. Thousands of war widows were also conscripted to go forth and multiply with new husbands from People’s Liberation Army.

It casts new light on the leadership’s determination to occupy and populate the far west, known as Xinjiang, in the early 1950s. Ethnic conflict between Chinese and the Uighur Muslim population has flared ever since. The area recently witnessed its worst riots since an insurrection in 1997. The stoical endurance of hundreds of thousands of Chinese settlers has rarely been described in such bleak terms as in the accounts of the 8,000 women from Hunan province collected by Lu Yiping, an author.

He spent five years tracing the survivors of that naive pilgrimage. “There were 200,000 soldiers in Xinjiang and only a handful had wives. So from 1949 to 1954 the military authorities, hushing up their real motive, recruited 40,000 women from all over China,” he said. The girls were sent to barracks scattered across the region. One group of 20 girls, who found themselves with a regiment of 1,000 men, hastily married 20 most senior officers within days of their arrival. Xiao Yequn, 15 at the time, refused to marry a 26- year-old commissar.

“When I found out he was nine years older than me I was unwilling to be his wife,” she recalled. “He immediately took out his pistol and put a bullet in the chamber. I dared not resist and the next year we got married.” Xiao’s story is among several published by the state media this year as the nation prepares to celebrate 60 years since “liberation” on October 1, 1949.
 
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things must be improving if the states gonna release something like this

Sounds more like gossip coming straight from RSS (i.e. Times of India). You should read some of their gossip (oops I mean "news").... :rofl::rofl::rofl: If Bharat wants to be taken seriously, first stop with the lies and gossip spreading. If someone did an archive of TOI they can read up on it. But for me I'm tired of nasty gossip -- just speak the truth god damnit!
 
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