curfew in gurdaspur, Punjab

[LiberalAtheist]

i visited Punjab last december and i have to say the state is being overrun by poor migrant workers UPites, Biharis, Telgus, etc every city you see many of these east Indian people you can't even get directions in straight Punjabi anymore without it being a mix of Hindi Telgu Oriya etc Punjab's state gov't should set immigration quotas otherwise the state will become a Bhaiyastan (land of the bhayias or meager rural workers).

 

[Roybot]

Punjabis cause they migrated to Punjab, not cause they were born here. They have a different culture/tradition/mentality/thinking. Everything is different. They don't like Sikhism. They want everyone to turn into a Hindu. They have taken over all the administration posts, in banks, in public offices, municipality corporation, and they have destroyed the public machinery. They won't nudge without a bribe. They show their importance, cause once they were the servants of Jatts to clean their fields, and take care of cattle, now they know they have the upper hand, a Jatt has o request them and pay them to do any work. They take advantage of it, and think they are our masters.

This is the reason for inefficiency of our state. Punjab could have been real power had it been in control of Punjabis.

So you are saying that every non sikh person living in Punjab is an outsider?

 

[janon]

So you are saying that every non sikh person living in Punjab is an outsider?

This whole line of thinking is spurious. Any Indian has a right to live and work anywhere in India. There is no such thing as punjab for punjabis and there is no need to speak about who migrated etc. Nobody is an outsider anywhere in India if he or she is an Indian citizen.

 

[jagjitnatt]

So you are saying that every non sikh person living in Punjab is an outsider?

Not an outsider. But a migrant, and migrants should have the courtesy to respect the local culture, and not try to invade the local culture and destroy it.

If all Bangladeshis come to India to work and take over diplomatic positions, and then start favoring the Bangladeshis in India, then you'd know how it is to live like a refugee in your own country. The same is happening in Kashmir, and see what is coming it down to.

This whole line of thinking is spurious. Any Indian has a right to live and work anywhere in India. There is no such thing as punjab for punjabis and there is no need to speak about who migrated etc. Nobody is an outsider anywhere in India if he or she is an Indian citizen.

There is. We have over a 100 languages, so many different cultures, traditions, religions. When a huge group of people start displacing another population, the culture, and their tradition is in danger of getting lost. That is a huge loss.

People and UP and Bihar are breeding like rabbits, and millions come to Punjab to work as labors, but now their huge population is becoming a threat to the Punjabi culture. These people are now threatening Punjabis. They were welcome as long as they follow Punjabi culture, but now they are dictating their terms to us, which is not acceptable.

If a bunch of idiots took over your state, and demanded you to forget your religion and culture, and follow theirs, you'd know what I am saying.

There needs to be a dual citizenship system in the country. Everyone should be allowed to move anywhere, but for a short period of time, for permanent settlement, there should be a visa system, so that prosperous states like Punjab and Maharashtra don't get over burdened, and fail because of people of other states.

In 50s it was ok, but now prosperity is very heterogenous in the nation. People who haven't worked hard shouldn't be allowed to piggy back on prosperous people, and slow them down.

 

[vsdoc]

There needs to be a dual citizenship system in the country. Everyone should be allowed to move anywhere, but for a short period of time, for permanent settlement, there should be a visa system, so that prosperous states like Punjab and Maharashtra don't get over burdened, and fail because of people of other states.

We already have such a system. Its called Domicile and it comes with certain advantages within the framework of the Union.

In 50s it was ok, but now prosperity is very heterogenous in the nation. People who haven't worked hard shouldn't be allowed to piggy back on prosperous people, and slow them down.

It can equally be argued that such states run because of migrant labour. Who incidentally work pretty damn hard for peanuts, doing jobs which the so called "natives" turn their noses up at.

I think our system works just fine. As an Indian, the right to move to any part of the country and make my living there as an equal is a right hard earned.

By ALL Indians.

I grew up a Bihari (now Jharkhand). I am now a Maharashtrian by domicile (having lived here for more than half my life now).

But even when I first came to Pune in 1989 to study, if a Maharashtrian gave me the same attitude (migrant etc.), I can tell you that my reaction to him or her would have been summed up in a single digit.

 

[Roybot]

Not an outsider. But a migrant, and migrants should have the courtesy to respect the local culture, and not try to invade the local culture and destroy it.

If all Bangladeshis come to India to work and take over diplomatic positions, and then start favoring the Bangladeshis in India, then you'd know how it is to live like a refugee in your own country. The same is happening in Kashmir, and see what is coming it down to.

I had the idea that about 40% of Punjabis were Hindus. Surely not all of them are migrant workers from Eastern India?

SC/ST taking over government jobs is not just limited to Punjab. They have reservation all over India in every state.

You comment about SC/ST how they used to pick rubbish in your farms and now acting all snobby in their government jobs reeks of some sort of superiority complex. Your arguments are exactly what Jatt Sikhs get to hear from Rednecks in Canada and America.

 

[janon]

Not an outsider. But a migrant, and migrants should have the courtesy to respect the local culture, and not try to invade the local culture and destroy it.

If all Bangladeshis come to India to work and take over diplomatic positions, and then start favoring the Bangladeshis in India, then you'd know how it is to live like a refugee in your own country. The same is happening in Kashmir, and see what is coming it down to.



There is. We have over a 100 languages, so many different cultures, traditions, religions. When a huge group of people start displacing another population, the culture, and their tradition is in danger of getting lost. That is a huge loss.

People and UP and Bihar are breeding like rabbits, and millions come to Punjab to work as labors, but now their huge population is becoming a threat to the Punjabi culture. These people are now threatening Punjabis. They were welcome as long as they follow Punjabi culture, but now they are dictating their terms to us, which is not acceptable.

If a bunch of idiots took over your state, and demanded you to forget your religion and culture, and follow theirs, you'd know what I am saying.

There needs to be a dual citizenship system in the country. Everyone should be allowed to move anywhere, but for a short period of time, for permanent settlement, there should be a visa system, so that prosperous states like Punjab and Maharashtra don't get over burdened, and fail because of people of other states.

In 50s it was ok, but now prosperity is very heterogenous in the nation. People who haven't worked hard shouldn't be allowed to piggy back on prosperous people, and slow them down.

They have every right to follow the culture of their choice, just as the local population has a right to follow theirs. What culture or tradition to follow is your personal choice. If anybody is actually preventing you from following your culture, you can complain against them. How exactly are they "demanding" that you should stop following your culture? If there are any specific charges you can make in that regard, sure I agree that whoever is preventing you from following your culture or religion should be punished.

But just the presence of another group of people from another state is not itself tantamount to your culture being suppressed. You have to learn to co-exist with other cultures, and so should they. Just the presence of people following another culture should not offend you, just like having people of other faiths living nearby is not any hindrance to your religious faith.

There should be no such thing as dual citizenship for India. There is a reason we decided to form a union of states, and become one country. That is why Sardar vallabhai patel and others had to go around the country, convincing every princely state to merge with the Indian union. Because we decided to live togehter as a country. If we wanted to live in the kind of system you are suggesting, we need not have formed a union of india when the british left - we could have remained as seperate countries/states (whatever you want to call them), with each issuing visas liberally to people of the other countries/states. Something like a european union.

That is not the idea on which the republic of india was formed. It was formed on the principle that people of different faiths, religions, languages, ethnicities etc can live together without harming the other said groups. And we have by and large succeeded in doing that. And on principle, I would like to continue doing that, rather than split up into several states (which is what you are essentially suggesting).Our pakistani and chinese friends would be delighted to hear this - many of them have been predicting that would happen, and so far, we have defied their predictions.

Also, your claim that migrants somehow reduce the wealth of regions has never been borne out by real world observations. Especially in a country like India, where migration is always for seeking work and earning a better living, it can only benefit both parties.

 

[jagjitnatt]

I had the idea that about 40% of Punjabis were Hindus. Surely not all of them are migrant workers from Eastern India?

SC/ST taking over government jobs is not just limited to Punjab. They have reservation all over India in every state.

You comment about SC/ST how they used to pick rubbish in your farms and now acting all snobby in their government jobs reeks of some sort of superiority complex. Your arguments are exactly what Jatt Sikhs get to hear from Rednecks in Canada and America.

Not all come from Eastern India, but 99% come from UP, Bihar, HP, Haryana, JK, and Rajasthan.

I am not against SC/ST taking over jobs, I am against them using these powers against the elite to prove their importance. These SC/ST employees make sure that majority of jobs are given to their relatives, or people from their community. They are corrupt, very incompetent, but they won't allow anyone else on their posts.

They would abuse if you wanted to get a birth certificate. They would only work if they got 2000-3000. And even then they would make sure that you plead to them. This is not allowed in a public machinery.

It is not superiority complex on our part, but inferiority complex on their part.

When riots took place in 2010, these were the mobs who came out and burnt all the luxury cars, and restaurants, because they couldn't afford them. There were no Punjabis, they were all paid mobs. And these people are ready to do anything for money.

Punjab's culture is in danger, and that is a FACT.

When Burkha gets banned in France, we say its France's say, cause its their country, and not muslims who are French by citizenship. Same is with Punjab. There are residents of Punjab, who are against Sikhism, but that doesn't mean you go against Sikhism. Punjabis' say should be more important here. Our culture is eroding and crime rate has increased multifold because of these people.

 

[jayron]

Migration of people is taking pace everywhere in India. Just like the millions of non-Punjabis trying to earn a living in Punjab, millions of Punjabis earn their living outside Punjab. Delhi alone has more than a million punjabis. What extra effort Punjabis take to integrate with the majority Hindu population of Delhi? nothing. I see a lot of Punjabis here in Bayarea driving cabs. They don't seem to have changed a lot because they are in the US. tolerance for others is a two way street.

 

[janon]

Not all come from Eastern India, but 99% come from UP, Bihar, HP, Haryana, JK, and Rajasthan.

I am not against SC/ST taking over jobs, I am against them using these powers against the elite to prove their importance. These SC/ST employees make sure that majority of jobs are given to their relatives, or people from their community. They are corrupt, very incompetent, but they won't allow anyone else on their posts.

They would abuse if you wanted to get a birth certificate. They would only work if they got 2000-3000. And even then they would make sure that you plead to them. This is not allowed in a public machinery.

It is not superiority complex on our part, but inferiority complex on their part.

When riots took place in 2010, these were the mobs who came out and burnt all the luxury cars, and restaurants, because they couldn't afford them. There were no Punjabis, they were all paid mobs. And these people are ready to do anything for money.

Punjab's culture is in danger, and that is a FACT.

When Burkha gets banned in France, we say its France's say, cause its their country, and not muslims who are French by citizenship. Same is with Punjab. There are residents of Punjab, who are against Sikhism, but that doesn't mean you go against Sikhism. Punjabis' say should be more important here. Our culture is eroding and crime rate has increased multifold because of these people.

Would you be ok if other states (say kerala or tamil nadu, with virtually no native sikh population) banned the sikh turban?

As another person pointed out, sc/st reservation occurs all over India, not just in punjab. If anybody (SC/ST or otherwise) abuses you, you have every right to seek appropriate action. But nothing in this generalised rant is an excuse to prevent people from living where they want and following whatever culture they want. You do not own any part of the earth (other than whatever you paid for and bought), and you dont have a right to tell others where they can live, or what culture they can follow. Them following their culture does not threaten yours.

Your last statement that "crime rate is increasing because of these people" is a universal prejudice shared by anyone against immigration, and have always been found to be a myth. In the usa for example, throughout the 1890s, everyone believed that crimes were increasing because of the chinese (because of a chinese migration wave to work as labor for railways). Then popular perception changed to the irish being responsible for crime rates in the 1920s, during the irish migration. Then it became east european groups and so on, and today many people blame the mexicans for increased crime rate. And all the groups who were once blamed for high crime rates would, in later years, accuse the next migrating group of the same thing.

The fact is that if anyone commits a crime, the local police and law courts can take appropriate action, just as they can when a native commits the same crime. Outsiders do not have diplomatic immunity. And there is no reason to believe that non punjabis are somehow more prone to be criminals than punjabis.

If somebody commits a crime, report him/her to the police. But don't talk of taking away other people's rights to move where they want.

 

[jagjitnatt]

They have every right to follow the culture of their choice, just as the local population has a right to follow theirs. What culture or tradition to follow is your personal choice. If anybody is actually preventing you from following your culture, you can complain against them. How exactly are they "demanding" that you should stop following your culture? If there are any specific charges you can make in that regard, sure I agree that whoever is preventing you from following your culture or religion should be punished.

But just the presence of another group of people from another state is not itself tantamount to your culture being suppressed. You have to learn to co-exist with other cultures, and so should they. Just the presence of people following another culture should not offend you, just like having people of other faiths living nearby is not any hindrance to your religious faith.

There should be no such thing as dual citizenship for India. There is a reason we decided to form a union of states, and become one country. That is why Sardar vallabhai patel and others had to go around the country, convincing every princely state to merge with the Indian union. Because we decided to live togehter as a country. If we wanted to live in the kind of system you are suggesting, we need not have formed a union of india when the british left - we could have remained as seperate countries/states (whatever you want to call them), with each issuing visas liberally to people of the other countries/states. Something like a european union.

That is not the idea on which the republic of india was formed. It was formed on the principle that people of different faiths, religions, languages, ethnicities etc can live together without harming the other said groups. And we have by and large succeeded in doing that. And on principle, I would like to continue doing that, rather than split up into several states (which is what you are essentially suggesting).Our pakistani and chinese friends would be delighted to hear this - many of them have been predicting that would happen, and so far, we have defied their predictions.

Also, your claim that migrants somehow reduce the wealth of regions has never been borne out by real world observations. Especially in a country like India, where migration is always for seeking work and earning a better living, it can only benefit both parties.

Everyone has the right to follow their culture. But that is NOT HAPPENING.

When groups of people start taking over govt. land illegally to make temples. When they start training people in martial arts, and shouting hindu slogans, in private parks, where they are not allowed. When these groups of people start rallying against our religion, when they start provoking us, and trying to start a fight, cause they know that they are a group of thousands of people and we can't beat them, when police won't take action against them cause even they are scared, when they would start stealing and become chain snatchers, when they would start projecting power, it no longer stays a peaceful state.

We are not used to these things. But now we no longer feel safe, we avoid places like these where these kind of people live.

You just won't get it cause you haven't faced it. When you do, you'll realize how bad this can get. Punjab has been violent in the past decade just because of these reasons. I've seen these mobs burning cars, and even trains, and police not being able to do anything. The trains that were bought from our tax money, and not to mention these buggers have never ever paid tax.

They are not a civilization, they are barbarians, whom we are trying to civilize.

I am not talking about regular Hindus, mind you. I am talking about goons hired by BSP, Shiv Sena, and RSS, who are trying to gain a hold in Punjab now, and convert it into something like UP and Bihar.

 

[cloud_9]

The major problem is emergence of armed group's like RSS,Shiv Sena and BSP gangs (not sure whether they are armed in other states) along with the in house monster's like Dal Khalsa from 80's.Somehow the non-Sikhs feel they are marginalised because Sikhs are in majority(62%).
But they fail to see that Punjab of today was made a majority Sikh state by the people sitting in Delhi . The Partition squeezed Sikhs in East Punjab and the further division into Himachal and Haryana on basis of language(read religion) squeezed them further.Even though the division into Haryana and Himachal was based on language but it ended up as division of Hindu's and Sikh's because mostly Sikhs spoke Punjabi.

Another thing is people trying to push Hindi forward in Punjab


@Roybot
The rule of thumb is,if you can't speak Punjabi you aint one

 

[jagjitnatt]

Would you be ok if other states (say kerala or tamil nadu, with virtually no sikh population) banned the sikh turban?.

There is a difference between religion and culture mate. You can't ban religion, and I won't support it either.

What I don't support is when a minority becomes a majority and starts to threaten the minority and replace their culture with theirs.

Let me give you an example. Do you know that Punjab was free from any pan masala till the people from UP and Bihar migrated?

Now these people would chew this masala, and keep spitting on public property. Do you not think we should BAN the pan masala in Punjab???

It has nothing good in it, and it is destroying the clean cities that we had. How do you think we should deal with this? Or should we allow it cause India's constitution allows movement of people???

Now you see the difference between religion and culture and bad habits???

 

[Bhairava]

I am not talking about regular Hindus, mind you. I am talking about goons hired by BSP, Shiv Sena, and RSS, who are trying to gain a hold in Punjab now, and convert it into something like UP and Bihar.

Please....not everything is green on the other side. You have Sikh rightwing groups also doing the same thing as Shiv Sena..The rogue elements are there on both side. Let's not magnify one side and brush the other under the carpet.

Also another reason why RSS and SS are gaining hold is because of the Punjabi hindus feeling alienated and threatened by groups like Dal Khalsa. So if you people dont want these elements to gain any hold then deny them the oxygen they thrive upon. If there is no extreme sikh right win organizations, then no Punjabi Hindu will go towards SS et al.

 

[Roybot]

@Roybot
The rule of thumb is,if you can't speak Punjabi you aint one

Fair enough. I was just confused, cause I know all these Hindu Punjabis here who eat, sing, dance like Punjabis and claim they are Punjabis. So is there a native Hindu Punjabi population or not?