CPEC - The $50 billion question.

[enroger]

Good to see things from your perspective, great post!

I do think things may go differently this time though (I'm a Chinese, may have bias...). It's not only that Chinese are mostly atheist, the truth is most Chinese don't care about other's religion. The idea is live and let live, you do your thing and we do ours, no interfering, no meddling. We don't go around the world acting like missionary trying to change other country. We just treat everyone as equals and do business on that basis.

This "don't care" attitude is the major difference between us and the Americans IMO.

That is true sir and thats why sometimes Pak-China friendship boggles my mind.

The Americans while having a different culture and religion were not atheists. The western civilization has had contact with Muslim world(albeit mostly contentious) for most of the last millennia. So they understood some of our sensitivities. That coupled with the fact that US is the most religiously conservative country in the west and our religious conservatism worked as a bulwark against communism, made our alliance work. In the 50's, US embassy in Karachi used to distribute copies of Koran translated into urdu, so for most part of our alliance they not only cherished our conservatism but also worked to keep us that way.

Now with the Chinese it is totally different. For most part of the last millennia, the middle kingdom stayed isolated from rest of the world. And when they finally opened up, they became Maoist. Now they view everything from a materialistic POV where spirituality has no place.

During the cultural revolution for example, the Muslims were forced to raise pigs instead of goats, as pigs produced more meat than their herds of goats. And mosques were used for this very purpose. And this was not done because Chinese had a bias against Muslims or Islam, but to change the culture and destroy stereotypes that according to them were holding back the economic growth of that community.

Now these people are coming to Pakistan. A nation that was created on the basis of a spiritual identity. Where the military calls its operations holy war. Where land reforms were not implemented because according to clergy that is against the religion. Where DNA testing for rape cases is a contentious topic as some of the clergy is not ready to accept it. Where one is liable to death punishment for blasphemy. Where most people(including myself) avoid taking loans from the bank because of the Riba.

For any outsider, especially one with a materialistic POV will find all of this as hindrance to growth and will be appalled by it.

 

[Kambojaric]

American-Pakistani relations floundered as our interests diverged. Whilst there are huge cultural differences at play as well which only intensified the divergence, at its core Pakistan lost its importance for the US following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and now India became important as they were indifferent/hostile to Americas new enemy aka China. With Pakistan having close ties with the middle kingdom it was only a matter of time before US Pakistan relations fell apart especially as the Russians no longer posed a major threat to the MidEast/Gulf region.

Therefore I do not see our relations with China collapsing any time soon since our interests do converge. That is not to say that this situation can or will remain forever. Just like the US saw no point in maintaining good relations with Pakistan any more following the changining scenario in the APAC/Mideast region as a consequence of the Soviet collapse, similarly China might also at some point in the future see no point maintaining close ties with Pakistan. As it stands however our relations are under no threat.

As for societal and cultural changes taking place in Pakistan, only two things can make that happen that is either a strong statesmen pushing for reforms Atatürk style or general economic progress reducing poverty and increasing wages resulting in a reduction of extremist mindsets (of all kinds religious or secular).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

at its core Pakistan lost its importance for the US following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Pakistan and US honeymoon was over by late 1960s after the high of early 1960s which had air of exhuberence similar to CPEC. The next two decades until the Soviet collapse flucatuated with a transient convergence of the Afghan jihad. I think cultural differances had a hand in the cooling although of course geo-politics also played a role.

In case of China I see her trying harder to 'mould' Pakistan then USA did simply because China is next door and it has long term strategic interests. I think now that the Chinese have a stake, a huge stake in Pakistan they will apply behind the scenes pressure to modulate the extremists tendancies in Pakistan as these will work against CPEC reaching it's full potential.

 

[American Pakistani]

We cannot start measuring things just from one incident in Khanewal. The engineers apologized for it already.

And like I said in the other thread, nobody should be allowed to take law in their hands, if those workers did something that fall against the law of Pakistan, then deport them. That kind of behavior should not be tolerated, regardless of police force's attitude. If they have complain against police, use appropriate channels.

 

[NOWorNEVER]

I think we need to understand that there are more than 10-20 thousands chinese working on different projects in Pakistan. 1 or 2 of this kind of incidents, does not means that all the chines workers are same. They are coming to the country which is culturally, religiously, ethnically, socially and standard of living is totally different than us.

I would have done that or not, had I been in his place is a matter of individual choice. if you cannot go freely outside due to the security and your life is consistently on threat. Just also think about other 10s of thousands of Chinese who are living and working on others projects with peace and friendly. This kind of clash are happening everywhere even in UK. One or two of this kind of incident does not mean that the whole pond is dirty.

 

[Kambojaric]

Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Pakistan and US honeymoon was over by late 1960s after the high of early 1960s which had air of exhuberence similar to CPEC. The next two decades until the Soviet collapse flucatuated with a transient convergence of the Afghan jihad. I think cultural differances had a hand in the cooling although of course geo-politics also played a role.

In case of China I see her trying harder to 'mould' Pakistan then USA did simply because China is next door and it has long term strategic interests. I think now that the Chinese have a stake, a huge stake in Pakistan they will apply behind the scenes pressure to modulate the extremists tendancies in Pakistan as these will work against CPEC reaching it's full potential.

Ayubs era was a peak no doubt as intersts converged and at the same time the ruling class in Islamabad could "wine and dine" as you stated in the OP. However the interests remained converged even in the Zia era. Look for example at how Carter speaks about the "courage" of Pakistan below during a Zia visit:

Only after the collapse of the Soviet Union did Pakistan lose importance for the US and from thereon relations have been on a serious downwards trajectory.

As for Chinese influence, one noticable thing about them is that they attempt to interfere as little as possible in the domestic affairs of countries they invest in. This is why so many African and Asian nations prefer it over the US. Now you could be right in the sense that Chinese investment in Pakistan far outweighs its investments in other parts of the world thereby ensuring that it has a greater interest in moderating Pakistan. It remains to be seen how their behavior towards Pakistan materalizes therefore. However it is likely that they will continue their non-interference policy although indirectly the financial benefits of CPEC will ultimately moderate Pakistani society regardless.

 

[enroger]

What kind of changes is needed in Pakistan for CPEC to be a success? Honest question.

Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Pakistan and US honeymoon was over by late 1960s after the high of early 1960s which had air of exhuberence similar to CPEC. The next two decades until the Soviet collapse flucatuated with a transient convergence of the Afghan jihad. I think cultural differances had a hand in the cooling although of course geo-politics also played a role.

In case of China I see her trying harder to 'mould' Pakistan then USA did simply because China is next door and it has long term strategic interests. I think now that the Chinese have a stake, a huge stake in Pakistan they will apply behind the scenes pressure to modulate the extremists tendancies in Pakistan as these will work against CPEC reaching it's full potential.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What kind of changes is needed in Pakistan for CPEC to be a success? Honest question.

A watered down version of what CCP did in China. Branch and root reordering of society. Turn society from a ideologically intoxicated, false piety addled, narrow minded to a business like outlook that emphasises hard work and drive to be economically productive.

 

[enroger]

It took us a cultural revolution to get rid of all the bullshit, hope you guys goes about it in smarter ways... Good luck from China

A watered down version of what CCP did in China. Branch and root reordering of society. Turn society from a ideologically intoxicated, false piety addled, narrow minded to a business like outlook that emphasises hard work and drive to be economically productive.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It took us a cultural revolution to get rid of all the bullshit, hope you guys goes about it in smarter ways... Good luck from China

Well the way I look at it is very simple. Perfectly round ball bearings colliding with square blocks will by definition not end well. Over time you would end up with the squares being rounded off to create a more smooth functioning dynamic. The recent example of Chinese athiest ball bearings colliding with the obscurantist Pak squares as we saw in the Khanewal incident alluded to the two profoundly differant outlooks jarring against each other.

Over the long term millions of these collisions will round out Pakistani society or China will walk away. I suspect he former.


Ps. China despite being in Asia is further from Pakistan as a civilization then USA. The former is a outshoot of a Christian order which is rooted in a Semitic tradition nurtured in the same space as Islam and sharing similiar contours.

 

[Tanveer666]

the Chinese army and trained in martial arts had attacked and injured police personnel deployed for their security.

for some reason,this cracked me up.

EDIT: Jokes aside, after reading the thread thoroughly, i have to agree with @Kambojaric bhai, as long as your interests are aligned, you guys will remain the buddies.
Sure, Chinese and Pakistanis interact more there is bound to be some "friction" due to massive cultural differences, but if China is serious about CPEC, these will not hinder the projects, if that's what your concern is.

 

[Kabira]

American-Pakistani relations floundered as our interests diverged. Whilst there are huge cultural differences at play as well which only intensified the divergence, at its core Pakistan lost its importance for the US following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and now India became important as they were indifferent/hostile to Americas new enemy aka China. With Pakistan having close ties with the middle kingdom it was only a matter of time before US Pakistan relations fell apart especially as the Russians no longer posed a major threat to the MidEast/Gulf region.

Therefore I do not see our relations with China collapsing any time soon since our interests do converge. That is not to say that this situation can or will remain forever. Just like the US saw no point in maintaining good relations with Pakistan any more following the changining scenario in the APAC/Mideast region as a consequence of the Soviet collapse, similarly China might also at some point in the future see no point maintaining close ties with Pakistan. As it stands however our relations are under no threat.

As for societal and cultural changes taking place in Pakistan, only two things can make that happen that is either a strong statesmen pushing for reforms Atatürk style or general economic progress reducing poverty and increasing wages resulting in a reduction of extremist mindsets (of all kinds religious or secular).

It diverged after Pakistan showed interest in nuclear weapons in response to India. Ayub Khan didn't even think about nuclear weapons, he was under delusion of getting them from USA. After that only time relations improved temporarily was when they needed us for their proxy war in Afghanistan in 80's and 00's. China on the other hand couldn't care less about Pakistan nukes.

When lal masjid deoband retards were killing Pakistanis Musharraf didn't do anything but as soon as they targeted some Chinese workers in massage center then Lal Masjid was turned in to dust soon after that. Lal masjid operation of starting point of decade long islamic insurgency. Pakistan state is in pockets of China and they know it.