Countering Cold Start doctrine by PAF

[jha]

TANK v/s TANK is not cold start doctrine...
We are not discussing an all out war here...

 

[Areesh]

Ah strange. People still talking about surgical strike and cold start BS. Strange indeed.

 

[InPhilTraitor]

This is from global security discussing Cold Start & Pakistani startegy

"Cold Start" is the Indian military doctrine meant to allow rapid deployment Special Forces units "to strike Pakistan within hours of any terrorist attack on Indian soil. It assumes that militants from Pakistan, and not home grown Indian radicals, are responsible for any actions". Such a rapid response would not allow time for diplomacy. "Cold Start" was developed with the help of external strategists, borrowing heavily from Israeli tactics, notably from the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.

The assumptions of the new Indian Doctrine are: (1) act offensively against Pakistan for any perceived acts of strategic destabilisation of India, proxy war and terrorism (2) move away from India's defensive mindset of the past 50 years (3) prepare to undertake offensive military operations at the outset (4) undertake offensive operations short of the nuclear threshold (5) the vast majority of Indian public will support any war putting Pakistan into place and forces it "to desist from proxy war and terrorism against India." India's doctrine of "Cold Start" involves swift penetration of Pakistan with the aim of isolating, destroying or capturing vital points (such as nuclear stores and other installations).

India can deploy four Strike Corps against Pakistan, one each against the Southern part of Azad Kashmir, Central Punjab, Southern Punjab and one against Sindh. They have the necessary balance to focus their attack in a combination of two or even three corps but time and space dictate they cannot move more than one strike corps on any axis and they have to cater for Pakistan's counter-offensive.

With all 3 Armoured Divisions and 4 RAPID Divisions, with 2 out of 5 Independent Armoured Brigades concentrated in Rajasthan, the resource allocation makes the offensive targets either along the Jaisalmer-Rahimyar Khan axis or along the Barmer-Mirpurkhas axis. In 2005 the "South-Western Command" was created at Jaipur. Their likely main thrust remains the deep South Barmer-Mirpurkhas axis with secondary effort in the Jaisalmer-Rahimyarkhan area.

Since no ground offensive is possible in the Thar Desert without heavy air cover, India's air deployment in 2002 suggested that the focus of their strike corps could well be in the south (Western and Southern Commands).

Pakistan's assumptions about "Cold Start" are: (1) offensive operations commencing without giving Pakistan time for diplomacy and (2) offensive operations will not cross the nuclear threshold or prompt Pakistan into crossing it. India implies that, should Pakistan opt for crossing the threshold, the onus would lie squarely on Pakistan. The ability to hold limited portions of Pakistan with military might and use this for political leverage against Pakistan will be unacceptable, triggering a ground war as well as a possible nuclear exchange.

From the 1965 war through the Indian Army's Brass Tacks excercise in 1987, Pakistan's emphasis was on static defence at the border. Three heavy infantry holding formations - IV, XXX, and XXXI Corps - are tasked with countering Indian thrusts in their immediate areas. Penetration of Indian territory would be undertaken only on an opportunity basis. This concept of operations was inadequate, given the lack of strategic depth in Pakistan. Eventually it was realized that a "stand and fight" doctrine would probably result in deep penetration by Indian forces, without Pakistani forces being able to manoeuver effectively. The Indian Army could gain the initiative, destroying Pakistani formations piecemeal as they reacted to Indian thrusts.

Pakistan's "Riposte" is simple in concept: the two Strike Corps would conduct a limited advance along narrow fronts to occupy Indian territory near the border, probably to a depth of about 50 km. I Corps (Mangla) and II Corps (Multan) are armor heavy "strike" corps. Independent Armoured and Mechanized Brigades are intended for quick counter attack and exploitation and would add weight to advances by the Strike Corps. Pakistan believes that international pressure would result in a ceasefire after a maximum of three weeks of conflict, which should be enough time to gain some territory to be used in subsequent bargaining.

The "Riposte" is practiced at all levels. Major excercises involve the crossing of water obstacles and minefields at night with emphasis on subsequent break-out and rapid advance. Complete mechanization of the Strike Corps and other formations to achieve desired mobility was slowed by the effects of US sanctions. But by 2008 US Army surplus equipment is now being rapidly delivered, and local manufacture and rebuilding of US supplied AFV/APC has received considerable impetus, thus improving the mechanization process.

Initially there was acceptance of Indian penetration of Pakistani territory, which is seen as inevitable, given the comparitive lack of mobility within the Infantry Divisions. But India's doctrine of "Cold Start" resulted in some modification to the Riposte, since acceptance of penetration could be fatal to counter-penetration plans.

In the event of an Indian advance reaching or crossing the line of the main Lahore-Karachi highway, there could be consideration of employment of tactical nuclear missiles. The Indian army/airforce excercise Vajra Shakti (Thunder Power) conducted in Punjab from 1-10 May 2005), emphasized maintaining mobility while operating under nuclear attack. But Pakistan's nuclear battlefield preparedness is patchy, and it is doubtful that even the Strike Corps could fight under nuclear attack.

Others have suggested that "instead of seeking a better bargaining position vis a vis India, through capture of sensitive territory — a riposte — Pakistan should adopt a destruction-oriented strategy, fighting on our own territory, permitting penetrations by the enemy. This would allow Pakistan to destroy the forces that make these penetrations by using the reserves. Such a strategy would erode India’s numerical superiority and its ability to threaten Pakistan with a long war."

 

[Areesh]

dude, there are 50 million+ of us with net access. at a 1% people who generally care about pak, there would be around 500K people actively interested in these forums. sounds enough for all the online activity and trolling you see by indians.

in my general experience, day to day, i've never ever seen pakistan being discussed over a casual chat. local issues and economic issues get far far more mind share.

Good if your nation aren't obsessed with Pakistan. Even though it is a bold face lie but anyways we accept your perception. Good. Keep it up.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

This is from global security discussing Cold Start & Pakistani startegy

What is the exact reference to this Global Security article?
It seems to be slightly dated in some areas.

 

[JK!]

Mos information from Global Security is massively dated the inventory of the Pakistan armed forces looks very old!

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Mos information from Global Security is massively dated the inventory of the Pakistan armed forces looks very old!

Tell me something new
Hence the my asking for the exact reference of InPhilTraitor's posting from Global Security.

 

[JK!]

Right listen in Gents!

If you have an objection to what someone is saying provide a constructive counter arguement. Lines like "what are you smoking?" are not acceptable!

If you wish to discuss Indian- Pakistani relations do so in the appropriate thread or if you want to do it in a personal debate talk via your own profiles.

If you feel you can do none of the above I suggest you find another forum to post in.

 

[InPhilTraitor]

What is the exact reference to this Global Security article?
It seems to be slightly dated in some areas.

here is the link India-Pakistan Conflict

 

[TaimiKhan]

Many seem super confident that "Pakistan will finish it".

I seem to remember one certain Iraqi information minister hours before Baghdad fell.

Well Pakistan is not Iraq, and India is not US.

And before pointing out the super confidence of Pakistani members, plzzz watch for the super duper over confidence being shown by your own brethren also.


So plzzz control your sarcasm.

 

[TaimiKhan]

The thread was started for the purpose of discussing the role of PAF in view of Countering Cold Start Doctrine, in which definitely IAF also has to play certain role.

Meaning, what can & will & should PAF do for its role in playing its part in defending / countering the Indian Cold Start Doctrine, beside the Army.

How it can use its resources & what further resources it needs, what kind of strategies it should use & develop to counter the strategies which will be put forward by the IAF in helping the IA achieving the overall objective of the Cold Start Doctrine, as it is evident from modern warfare, that Land Forces can not fully meet its objectives without active help & support of the air force.

So from now on the discussion should revolve around this topic, in discussing strategies and not BSing around.

Indian members should only come into discussion where necessary to put forward their view in defending IAF strategies and counter strategies, and not for trolling.

If any Indian member goes out of the thread topic, he will be out of the forum also for good.

Same case for Pakistani members, do your research and then talk and discuss, no need to troll and post BS kind of conspiracy theories or other nonsense.

Keep it as per the topic.

 

[shanixee]

The thread was started for the purpose of discussing the role of PAF in view of Countering Cold Start Doctrine, in which definitely IAF also has to play certain role.

Meaning, what can & will & should PAF do for its role in playing its part in defending / countering the Indian Cold Start Doctrine, beside the Army.

How it can use its resources & what further resources it needs, what kind of strategies it should use & develop to counter the strategies which will be put forward by the IAF in helping the IA achieving the overall objective of the Cold Start Doctrine, as it is evident from modern warfare, that Land Forces can not fully meet its objectives without active help & support of the air force.

So from now on the discussion should revolve around this topic, in discussing strategies and not BSing around.

Indian members should only come into discussion where necessary to put forward their view in defending IAF strategies and counter strategies, and not for trolling.

If any Indian member goes out of the thread topic, he will be out of the forum also for good.

Same case for Pakistani members, do your research and then talk and discuss, no need to troll and post BS kind of conspiracy theories or other nonsense.

Keep it as per the topic.

Absolutely right

friends i did not opened this thread to start fight. this thread is only to discuss possible thread to our country and how does our Airforce stand against threats which may become reality. if you see and search its not long our Army cheif has taken indian steps of cold start very seriously..Azm-e-nau and naval and air excercises are example which were meant to counter cold start doctrine.

Now is the cold start doctrine is the end or begening to bigger aggression which might be standing next door after cold start doctrine takes place as US FM Hilery Clinton said Pakistan will face tough concequences if any attack becomes successful in the US.

Cause as soon as Pakistan retaliate to coldstart doctrine Pakistan will be facing immigeate sanctions from EU and US which will only be for us not for India. which they want as they did this with Iraq and Afganistan was already was war torn.

remember the map of Pakistan they showed as in pieces in 2015

 

[Trisonics]

I believe the cold start strategy is a real threat for Pakistan as far as the US is around in the region. US and India may find common ground as far as eliminating the jihadi network in Pakistan. So, in that sense there may be a combined attack (but of course India will be shown as the aggressor) on these camps/networks. With some serious arm twisting from the US, any incident will probably not have any retaliation. After the US leaves, there will be too much risk to even attempt any such attack.

I also do think the cold start is just to put immense pressure on Pakistan to stop supporting any terror incidents or face such an act. Previously, Pakistan may have worked with a "nuclear" curtain behind them, now they are left guessing on what can happen. India also did get immense support from the world community, if I remember correctly a statement from US also did not condemn a surgical strike after Mumbai.

The bottom line is, surgical strikes/Cold Start were developed as a retaliatory response from India if ever there was another Mumbai and not to start a war! India will not attack Pakistan because it has a doctrine in mind! So keeping that in mind, and also the support it would get if there was another Mumbai..it can be real. Add the USA in the equation and it becomes very real.

If there was no terror incident on Indian soil from Pakistan ..really there is no threat from India as far as the cold start is concerned...Its merely not about what equipment with either side had but more of can Pakistan really afford to breed state/stateless/freedom fighters anymore???

 

[muse]

Shanixee

remember the map of Pakistan they showed as in pieces in 2015

Hysterics make for bad strategy.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I believe the cold start strategy is a real threat for Pakistan as far as the US is around in the region. US and India may find common ground as far as eliminating the jihadi network in Pakistan. So, in that sense there may be a combined attack (but of course India will be shown as the aggressor) on these camps/networks. With some serious arm twisting from the US, any incident will probably not have any retaliation. After the US leaves, there will be too much risk to even attempt any such attack.

I also do think the cold start is just to put immense pressure on Pakistan to stop supporting any terror incidents or face such an act. Previously, Pakistan may have worked with a "nuclear" curtain behind them, now they are left guessing on what can happen. India also did get immense support from the world community, if I remember correctly a statement from US also did not condemn a surgical strike after Mumbai.

The bottom line is, surgical strikes/Cold Start were developed as a retaliatory response from India if ever there was another Mumbai and not to start a war! India will not attack Pakistan because it has a doctrine in mind! So keeping that in mind, and also the support it would get if there was another Mumbai..it can be real. Add the USA in the equation and it becomes very real.

If there was no terror incident on Indian soil from Pakistan ..really there is no threat from India as far as the cold start is concerned...Its merely not about what equipment with either side had but more of can Pakistan really afford to breed state/stateless/freedom fighters anymore???

Sorry muse sir, i now fully agree with whatever you have said about the other side, my mistake to have doubted you.

They think they will and now combined with US they will attack Pakistan and we will sit d***less and do nothing or that we are another Afghanistan.

US can't handle rag tag Afghan Taliban, while the Indians couldn't handle the Kashmiri freedom fighters and they will try control us.

Unbelievable.

Once again


No Indian member should reply to my post, its enough, no need for more BS & nonsense.