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Conversations With A Muslim Lady from Delhi

Point one accident in Pak comparable to 1984 Sikh massacre or Gujarat 2001. Both done with backing of Indian gov.

The simple fact that there is hardly any minority left in Pakistan is an adequate example; more so, when Jinnah wanted Pakistan to allow equal rights to all without the issue of Faith!!

Where have the minorities gone?
 
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The simple fact that there is hardly any minority left in Pakistan is an adequate example; more so, when Jinnah wanted Pakistan to allow equal rights to all without the issue of Faith!!

Where have the minorities gone?

Bharat Rhaksha articles are hardly a good source Salim. Minorities have actually increased since AFTER Partition in Pakistan. I know you will quote websites that express the percentage as a proportion of the population BEFORE Partition. As usual, your lame attempts at maligning backfire.
 
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Just to offer some proof.

Population of Pakistan (1951) = 34 million (modern day Pakistan)
(Source: Population Resource Center )

Hindu population of modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000 people
(Source : Table A2, West Pakistan province/state (modern day Pakistan) BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR - Volume 6(2) September October 2003 . Note, this is a Hindu propaganda website, some of the figures are also wrong and the methodologies are wrong, but even the figure of 528,000 Hindus in Pakistan immediately after partition is accepted by them)

Percentage Hindu population in modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000/32 million = 1.6%.
This figure of 1.6% is immediately following partition in 1947, and has stayed the same (in fact slightly increased) up till modern times in Pakistan.

Modern day Pakistan (2005), population of 150,000,000 has 2% Hindus. So total Hindus in Pakistan (2005) = 2% of 150,000,000 = 3 million. (Source: See this very Hindutva biased website: "Unbelievable as it may seem, Hindus still exist in Pakistan, numbering over 2.5 million." Hindu Human Rights - Serving Hindus Worldwide

I think you will agree that an increase from post partition of 528,000 HIndus (1951) to 3,000,000 (2005) is a huge increase in the number of Hindus in Pakistan (a 6 fold increase, whilst the Pakistani Muslim population has increased only 5 fold (30 million in 1951 till 150 million in 2005).

Do you not agree that the Hindu population of modern day Pakistan has greatly increased from 1947 to date, and if not, why not? Being the intolerant Muslim alter ego of Hindu fascists like Atal Vajpayee, the ex BJP Indian president, I would forecast that Hinduism will be the dominant religion in Pakistan in 2050! ;)
 
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Good find Roadrunner. I was not aware of that, but it makes sense if you ask me.
I would think Bangladesh was the most affected by partition. Pakistan was already heavily Muslim due to proximity to the middle east.
 
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Indonesia is not!!! Yet it is got a lot of Muslems..

I was comparing the Pakistani provinces to Indian provinces. That was a very illogical argument coming from you. My argument being that Pakistani provinces have a more "Islamic" history than the Indian ones.

Just to point out your strange argument. Indonesia has more Muslims than Saudi Arabia, I am sure you can reach an equally strange conclusion from that.
 
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I see Salim joins the ranks of denial

"It is fashionable to be declared a low caste in India".

That's bs Salim. It's been proven that low castes are discriminated against in Bharat. I quoted a statistical piece of evidence in my 2nd and 3rd posts for this thread. Why would anyone choose to be someone that would be more likely to be discriminated against socially?

For quota reservations.. Many people have been caught with fake SC/ST certificates from DM/DC...

Sounds like the typical pussyfooted theNeo-Nazi whingers who claim "he only got the job because he's black".

Sir it is because of quote reservations..
 
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So you barely know your own history, and you come to a Pakistani forum to teach us about ours?

Sorry Sir if you felt that way..
I personally do not see any harm if we also look up foreigners with good academic credentials as well to better our understanding of the history of our Lands..
Pakistani and Indian Historians or Govt Publications from either of our 2 nations "maybe" biased..

Here are some things you might want to look up.

Sir being a Sikh and an India I am quite aware of it..

1984 Sikh massacres

Dear Sir, I am a Sikh from Delhi, I have had stories from both sides..
It was nothing short of a genocide.. yet I hope you agree one must look at the factors/events which took place before and after the "Riots".
I call this Riots because Sikhs had retaliated therefore to call it genocide would be nothing short of hiding the unchivalrous manner in which Sikhs replied..

2002 Muslim Massacres

Indeed a despicable act.. if you see the CM glorifying has been rapped by the Courts and if indeed he is guilty as we all can see ostensibly he is.. May God direct his fury on him..

The never ending, Kashmir, Mao and Assamese massacres

Dear Sir.. Kashmir massacres are as I would imagine you believe to be one-sided.. but I don't know how much you would believe me, an Indian
Let me add.. there are always 2 sides to a coin..
I feel sorry for the average terrorised Kashmiri living in a village..

May all those Indian Army Men involved in conduct unbecoming and whose acts are greater in sin than their enemies may they be confined to hell, if the enemies is indeed evil may God forgive them, for their unforgivable blasphemies and spare the ruin of their clans..

10 million baby girls abortions in the past 2g years

My dear friend, in this statisitics the main culprits are my people i.e Sikhs, Punjabis, Haryanvis.. The SGPC is trying to alleviate the situation. I hope waheguru give Sadbhuddi to my people and each of these girls born may be each a Warrior like Bibi Dalair Kaur.. who died fighting the Barbaric Mughal Soldiers.. blessed by the Guru to die for protecting the honour of the Khalsa..
Thats just the major ones that I know of. You are seriously deluded by your own nationalism. And like I said before, insulting Pakistanis wont get you any credibility.

Sir each of your words and the words of your fellow coutrymen are not words dipped in honey, and stung by these sharp words like arrows dipped in cobra's venom, If I reacted in a way which was hateful or otherwise if I have abused your land, people, religion then I am sorry I could not let my feelings of revenge be overcome and in the future I shall endeavor to not try it again..

There are times when I may not know the level of your tolerance, so therefore certain of my posts may sting at your heart, I apologize for them too...
 
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Just to offer some proof.

Population of Pakistan (1951) = 34 million (modern day Pakistan)
(Source: Population Resource Center )

Hindu population of modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000 people
(Source : Table A2, West Pakistan province/state (modern day Pakistan) BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR - Volume 6(2) September October 2003 . Note, this is a Hindu propaganda website, some of the figures are also wrong and the methodologies are wrong, but even the figure of 528,000 Hindus in Pakistan immediately after partition is accepted by them)

Percentage Hindu population in modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000/32 million = 1.6%.
This figure of 1.6% is immediately following partition in 1947, and has stayed the same (in fact slightly increased) up till modern times in Pakistan.

Modern day Pakistan (2005), population of 150,000,000 has 2% Hindus. So total Hindus in Pakistan (2005) = 2% of 150,000,000 = 3 million. (Source: See this very Hindutva biased website: "Unbelievable as it may seem, Hindus still exist in Pakistan, numbering over 2.5 million." Hindu Human Rights - Serving Hindus Worldwide

I think you will agree that an increase from post partition of 528,000 HIndus (1951) to 3,000,000 (2005) is a huge increase in the number of Hindus in Pakistan (a 6 fold increase, whilst the Pakistani Muslim population has increased only 5 fold (30 million in 1951 till 150 million in 2005).

Do you not agree that the Hindu population of modern day Pakistan has greatly increased from 1947 to date, and if not, why not? Being the intolerant Muslim alter ego of Hindu fascists like Atal Vajpayee, the ex BJP Indian president, I would forecast that Hinduism will be the dominant religion in Pakistan in 2050! ;)

Good find, i hope hindutvas thugs will learn from it. :enjoy:
 
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No, you couldn't actually. Nothing in Pakistan has happened, like in Gujerat. Sectarian violence has occurred between some Sunni radicals and Shias, but these are very minor in comparison.

Dear Sir, Killing people of other faiths is unfortunate but at times inevitable, unavoidable, unstoppable.. Both sides at times because of impatience, misunderstandings, the need to assert, frustrations etc. give went to a very violent form of expression.. which is condemnable...

if the other retaliates in self-defence then it is acceptable,.. but if other tries to payback in the same coin.. then to my conscience it still appears justifiable but at the same time only the guilty/perpetrators must be fought against.. the innocents must be untouched...
yet at the same time.. as much as I try to justify I am reminded of our founding father's quote..An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind...

yet again the very venerable Hazrat Chisti sahab said

"That man is a true devotee of Almighty Allah, who resigns with pleasure to the misfortune that comes from his beloved (Almighty Allah)."

But Sir I hope you realise
India is a more intolerant society than Pakistan.

dear sir, I have not had a chance of visiting Pakistan.. and from the descriptions I hear from Pakistanis.. it is a paradise on earth rivalling my own country's standing as depicted by Sufi Amir Khusro(May he bless us all, the believer and the infidel)...

From the news posted by media I concur their are problems, issues which threaten the status of the paradise of my own country...

Of that there's little doubt..Once you remove the cloak the Brahmin dominated government is trying to put over the intolerance that exists in reality.

Dear sir one must not have doubt in the impermanence and mysteries of our ever-changing world esp without having first hand knowledge, in possessing one also one must realise that still this world is delusional .. what appears to our intellect or senses is generally coloured/biased...

Dear Sir having lived in India, I can safely vouch that there are many divisions in Brahmin communties.. and they getting along is at times akin to asking a Hindustani RSS supporter getting along with a Le-T supporter..

They generally do not inter-marry and each seeks to assert one's dominance esp in the religious world, politics etc...

The most orthodox, rigid and considered the purest are the Namboothri Brahmins of Kerala the custodians of the Badrinath temple..

Even in them they have 10 classes with each class having a seperate duty and specialisation.. a further classification in these classes exist as well.. this special class is called the exalted eight families..

Namboothri like other several 100 Brahmin communities.. have no similarities in culture or traditions, religious practises with each other.. they all have a unique culture, tradition etc.. except the tradition of not marrying in other Brahminical Communities..

That is a Namboothri Brahmin will never marry a non-Namboothri Brahmin or otherwise(generally) .


for a list
Kamat's Potpourri: Brahmins - A List of Brahmin Communities
Brahmin communities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Gujerat was just one demonstration of this, and it wasn't even the fault of any Muslims! That's religious tension for you!

Sir as I sincerely believe that there are always to sides to a coin.. yet irresp of who is guilty.. the conduct of Gujaratis and State admn and machinery.. was shameful and unforgivable...

One must realise that such acts only fuel anger and hate.. and other such riots..

My heart goes out to all the innocent Muslims and also to the condemned to hell perpetrators.. may God forgive them for such inexcusable evil deeds..

The need for a law protecting Dalits is another example of the extent of intolerance within Bharati society.

Dear Sir,quota system exists in Pakistan too.. and I believe the need to do so as deemed fit by the govt of your country is to give a chance to all and remove imbalance in participation...

Dalits have wrongly and inhumanely been condemned to a life of hardships by their fellow "high caste" brethren.. whether the high caste be an atheist, Chrisitan, Hindu, Muslim or Sikh such a deep and widespread social malaise is not easy to eradicate.. to lessen the damage done by decades of inhumane caste system the hon. Constitution famed by the famous "Dalit" BR Ambedkar seeked to provide opportunities to the Dalits,though one may consider such to be rather harsh punishment to an avg Indian by taking away deserved opportunities, to grant the low-self-esteemed Dalits a chance to rise in life and participate in the nations progress and running..

Dear Sir after 60 years of Independence.. the Dalits have not been able to capitalize on this great opportunity and even the political parties formed by dalits for dalit upliftment have failed them..

Most people argue that each year govt increases the quota to get all important dalit votes(as most educated middle class people wrongly never exercise their adult franchise) thereby creating situations where the all important jobs vital to the smooth running of nation are handed over to less than capable but individuals and rob the deserving of their chance..

These laws have failed for the past 60 years.. and increasing the quota to at times more than 50% is seen as a populist measure.. furhther some states have a lower population of Dalits thereby giving them an unfair advantage and vice versa(Quotas are nationally set)...

Thereby the laws for Dalits existed as a social countermeasure and not a one due to religious intolerance in my humble opinion..
 
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Point one accident in Pak comparable to 1984 Sikh massacre or Gujarat 2001. Both done with backing of Indian gov.

Dear Sir,
I praise the word you used, "accident" though treachery would be a better word.. though I would prefer that you use the word riots but suit yourself.. I would not go against your passions.. and to some extent mine..

Sir, India is unique that it has some of the largest communities of the following religions

Parsis Hindus Muslims Sikhs Jains

Each of this religion is diametrically opposite to the other, and each follower in their zeal and at times fanaticism seeks to assert their religion and its dominance..
Naturally owing to the friction in between them caused b y the followers such incidents take place and are big insults to the otherwise peaceful society and secularism of India..

In the 2 riots you mentioned at both times the govt was involved as you rightly pointed out... and the bigger party in the first case (Congress supporting?) but definetly Sikh hating Hindus.. were involved,,
In the second case (RSS supporting?) but definetly Muslim hating Hindus were involved..

The first case was due to the assassination of Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards... actually as per what I gather.. there were tensions simmering in Delhi where the Sikhs were in few numbers absolutely but relative to their population elsewhere significantly big... and this was like a spark which caught the Sikhs unaware and the connivance of the govt made matters worse.. I wholly blame the govt, congress and Hindus and all others involved for this..

The second case.. was due to an altercation between Muslims and Hindus..
I think the wikipedia article is very objective with extensive references..
Godhra train burning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this was an unfortunate incident which resulted in no respect for human life where men behaved like animals and killed one another for their beliefs... I blame the Hindus, govt and all parties involved..

Here we see twice the otherwise non-violent and peace loving Hindus were incited into such acts of violence and debauchry which would be foreign to mercenaries..

This shows the power of words and the power of people's passions.. and therefore one must always endure to spread peace and love.. for we not know where are words strike a person and he vents out his frustrations on your people or co-religionists in his capacity or in his sphere of influence...

I think the Pakistanis may figure out what I mean.. My aim is that you do not back down yet one must exercise restraint in interest of doing one's bit for one's Ummah... Forgiveness is the trait of the strong and a true believer and venting out frustrations of the weak, insecure and infidel..\

In a very positive and receptive frame of mind.. one must look to Chishti Sahab, Naib-e-Rasul Fil Hind, the Liutenant of the Prophet in India.. and let his teachings guide us all..

"Love all and hate none. Mere talk of peace will avail you naught.
Mere talk of God and religion will not take you far.
Bring out all the latent powers of your being and reveal the full magnificence of your immortal self."

"A sin committed does not harm an individual so much as looking down upon one's own fellow human beings.Of all the worship that pleases Almighty Allah, the most is the granting of relief to the humble and the oppressed. "

Therefore one must as per the teachings of Chishti Sahab endeavour in one's own way to forgive..
 
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RR,
A nation created for Moslems fighting Moslems and brushing it under carpet as sectarian violence is indeed an interesting commentary, to say the least.

Yes indeed it is a very disconcertning thing to see... people of 1 religion fighting one another due to following different interpretations..
as far as I am aware both follow same theological beliefs of the Quran..
No wonder wise sages say..
Religion if followed in a simple manner.. unites and brings his grace..
Religions followed minutely and with complexities divides..

Islam talks of worldwise oneness i.e. ummah. Ummah means all types of Moslems. No other religion states so.If Islam cannot achieve oneness and instead fights others and themselves too, all because of temporal supremacy, it is indeed an unfortunate commentary. It all about power and subjugation of those who do not have the numbers, even if their faith is Islam! Solve your ideological issues, face the world as one and then talk!

Here Salim sahab I would like to differ..As I have inferred from the works by the varied masters of various religions one must try to infer..find the symbolism... the lesson..the real teaching.. hidden to the uninitiated, weak, undeserving which by the meher/grace/blessing is revealed to the deserving..

I don't think Muslims should believe paradise is so easy to obtain and harder still is one's love so deep for God that one's ego is Fana/annihalated in it..
as espoused by Sufis, Bhakta Yogis, Sikhism..

I would like to believe Ummah means a community of all those who believe in God, follow similar Theological beliefs(they are common to all as per my inference) and are truly submissive to the will of God..

I think keeping the Chisti sahabs great teachings in mind again the great master says

"He indeed is close to God, who is ever steeped in His submission,
Who interprets every event as coming from God,
And who is content with it and who takes it as a blessing.
This is the main object of all prayers and worship."

My own take on the Ummah is... I have previously as well pointed out that..

Guru Gobind Singh and his Sikhs being helped by the various Pirs and pious Muslims and even the pious Hindus.. was actually an Ummah witnessed in Indian subcontinent.. where all the pious and devoted servants of God.. united together to help a man of God..fight in his mission to uproot tyranny and evil..

Without any disrespect to Muslims, what is the point of achieving Ummah amongst Muslims, if they do not live upto the true ideals of Quran reiterated throughout by the ages by the All-Merciful's messengers??

Today religions have sadly become a playground for the various sects and the true followers have hidden... one must have belief in the all knowning to provide one guidance.. and one must follow his will and not try to assert one's own...

I hope no one objects to this, my intention is not to be hurtful...
 
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The simple fact that there is hardly any minority left in Pakistan is an adequate example; more so, when Jinnah wanted Pakistan to allow equal rights to all without the issue of Faith!!
Where have the minorities gone?

Bharat Rhaksha articles are hardly a good source Salim. Minorities have actually increased since AFTER Partition in Pakistan. I know you will quote websites that express the percentage as a proportion of the population BEFORE Partition. As usual, your lame attempts at maligning backfire.

Dear Roadrunner I don't think Salim's sahabs post are meant in such a way so as to cause hurt...
I join Salim Sahab in reiterating that the minorities in Pakistan are hardly visible and with the growing rise of Islamisication in Pakistan they have been further obscured..

Just to offer some proof.

Population of Pakistan (1951) = 34 million (modern day Pakistan)
(Source: Population Resource Center )

Hindu population of modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000 people
(Source : Table A2, West Pakistan province/state (modern day Pakistan) BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR - Volume 6(2) September October 2003 . Note, this is a Hindu propaganda website, some of the figures are also wrong and the methodologies are wrong, but even the figure of 528,000 Hindus in Pakistan immediately after partition is accepted by them)

Percentage Hindu population in modern day Pakistan (1951) = 528,000/32 million = 1.6%.
This figure of 1.6% is immediately following partition in 1947, and has stayed the same (in fact slightly increased) up till modern times in Pakistan.

Modern day Pakistan (2005), population of 150,000,000 has 2% Hindus. So total Hindus in Pakistan (2005) = 2% of 150,000,000 = 3 million. (Source: See this very Hindutva biased website: "Unbelievable as it may seem, Hindus still exist in Pakistan, numbering over 2.5 million." Hindu Human Rights - Serving Hindus Worldwide

I think you will agree that an increase from post partition of 528,000 HIndus (1951) to 3,000,000 (2005) is a huge increase in the number of Hindus in Pakistan (a 6 fold increase, whilst the Pakistani Muslim population has increased only 5 fold (30 million in 1951 till 150 million in 2005).

Do you not agree that the Hindu population of modern day Pakistan has greatly increased from 1947 to date, and if not, why not? Being the intolerant Muslim alter ego of Hindu fascists like Atal Vajpayee, the ex BJP Indian president, I would forecast that Hinduism will be the dominant religion in Pakistan in 2050! ;)

Dear Sir.. may God bless Pakistan so that their populace of patriotic Hindus and Sikhs scale the boundaries achieved by the majority and prove what a true asset they are..

But my dear Sir.. I will not quote any statistic since you may disagree with me..

but I have heard of only 2 famous Hindus from Pakistan
1 is Dinesh Kaneria famous for his Inshallahs.. no wonder abuses to the ears of some Hardcore Hindu Fundamentalists..
2 is an Army recruit

from the Sikhs I know this much

1. Swat Valley where there is a sizeable Sikh population where they live in abject poverty
2. Nanakana Sahib mostly from Swat Valley settled there.. the custodians of the Gurudwaras are mostly muslims and they perform many blasphemous to Sikh acts.. though the Pakistan Gurudwara board is less corrupt and inefficient then believed to be(true 6-7 years back)
3. Peshawar has also a good number of Sikhs with 1 dilapidated Gurudwara, though if the Grace of Wahegure permits, its glory should remanifest
4. there is a re-appearance of Sikhs in Lahore.. I do not know why is this happening.. Lahoris please confirm this phenomenon
5. Sikhs due to a lack of numbers has restored to marriage amongst cousins.. a necessity but generally not sanctified
6. There is a Sikh councillor in Zolpur, Balochistan, a tea merchant
7. the famous Sikh Traffic Warden
8. the famous Sikh army recruit

I had befriended a Sindhi Hindu from Shikarpur in UK during my studies and certain practises/events which he described were sadly confirmed by a very dear and much older friend from Lahore who is a Salafi/Wahabi,..

Even pardoning the above as a one-off incident and I be so bold as to claim that minorities in Pakistan esp the non-Muslim and non-Chrisitian have generally been oppressed against and the lack of them in any senior post with 2-3% overall population percentage is frightening.. for eg. the Sikhs in India number less than 2% of the overall population of India..and the parsis just 100,000 and even the Jains number less than 1% yet all have now become indeed a very dominant and visible people..

and what is even more frightening is the rise of missionary style activities for eg. T-e-J and at times stories by Amnesities of conversion by torture.. and the general rise of Islamisication.. I think the one-off incidents of army recruits etc. will largely be offset by the growing Islamicisation though if you believe otherwise then I hope you are correct else My sympathies are with them..

I again would like to quote CHishti Sahab...

"A friend of God must have affection like the Sun. When the sun rises, it is beneficial to all irrespective of whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Hindu."
 
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I was comparing the Pakistani provinces to Indian provinces. That was a very illogical argument coming from you. My argument being that Pakistani provinces have a more "Islamic" history than the Indian ones.

Dear Sir, I thought it meant something else.. yes many Pakistani provinces can have a more Islamic history but at teh same time one must also acknowledge the spread of Islam in South India took place before much of the Indian sub-continent save one or two provinces..

Just to point out your strange argument. Indonesia has more Muslims than Saudi Arabia, I am sure you can reach an equally strange conclusion from that.

sir, you appear irritated? let me reassure you that my intention was not as you have perceived it.. I thought you meant something else..
 
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