Coercion Sabotage Or Incompetence :---

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

That M&M candy is constipated---coming out real slow---and most often stuck---needs some prunes----or dried figs.




Sir,

I don't think you have the right frame of mind to comment on things---you are too irrationally emotional---.

Find some direction in your comments plz----thank you.

I told you a long ago not to address me as your comment are personal and when you are given the same in kind you don't like it. Funny how people like you sit in America judging us but won't get off you backside and do something about your complaints. I on the other hand spent all my life in the UK and now live in pakistan. Yes there are problems but what country doesn't have problems. I am certain InshAllah Pakistan will be just fine even with all its internal and external enemies. If that makes me someone that not in the right frame of mind then I would be rather that than someone who just complains sitting in foreign lands.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I told you a long ago not to address me as your comment are personal and when you are given the same in kind you don't like it. Funny how people like you sit in America judging us but won't get off you backside and do something about your complaints. I on the other hand spent all my life in the UK and now live in pakistan. Yes there are problems but what country doesn't have problems. I am certain InshAllah Pakistan will be just fine even with all its internal and external enemies. If that makes me someone that not in the right frame of mind then I would be rather that than someone who just complains sitting in foreign lands.

Don't get angry. It gives credence to your critics.

 

[Trango Towers]

Don't get angry. It gives credence to your critics.

Thanks you bhai.

 

[MastanKhan]

Thanks you bhai.

Hi,

" Thank you SIR " is the appropriate answer---and not " thank you bhai "---to that retd officer. He is retd. military---give him the respect he deserves---.

And by the by---I did not call on you---you started it---now don't whimper.

It boils down to strategy, and as some of you have pointed out, PAF's strategy is not offensive, while Indian is entirely offensive. It will remain this way, and for rightful reasons. All of you, or some of you can argue this or that, but save your calories. Strategies are made over time, and this one we are confident and comfortable with. No matter what you call PAF decision makers, we have defended the air space when called to do it.

For the offensive, Pakistan defense forces don't intend to use aircraft. They wont be able to, anyway, due to Spyder, Arrow, S400, and other SAMs. Pakistan's offensive strategy includes use of strategic weapons, SOWs, and other methods. Now fanboys or not, the twin engine aircraft look great, sound great, feel great, but we are a country of limited resources, in the midst of entire fleet replacements.

To defend against the "superior" aircraft that you notice, we are not sitting idle. Some procurements you see already. Others are in the works. Whats in the plans cannot be shared publicly, no matter how much abuse you hurl at us.

The current plan, which you already sense and analyze, is to replace the ageing lot of fighters. This is a huge priority. If left unfilled in pursuit of top tier aircraft, will compromise our defense altogether. However, the evolving threat is not gone unnoticed, and appropriate actions are in process to counter them. Pakistan Paindabad.

Hi,

Technically---what you are saying is known as a GUARANTEE---.

The problem is that you have not added INSURANCE to that GUARANTEE---and that is what is at the core of the issue---.

Your FLANK is the open seas---that is your weakest link---and it is the enemy's weakest link as well---.

And on this flank---none of the LRSAMS would work---heavy strike aircraft with standoff weapons will rule.

The enemy would have to disperse its resources over a larger area to protect its MORE IMPORTANT shoreline assets---which means---that it may weaken the point defence.

The same concern that the Paf has of enemy aircraft coming in over the arabian seas and coming from behind karachi---the same concern that the enemy has if Paf had long range heavy strike aircraft.

Sir---you have NO ALTERNATIVES---Sab Theek Hai---Mujhay Allah pey Iman Hai---Inshaallah theek ho jai gaa---Hum Dartay Nahin hein---Hum Jaan danay ko tiar hein---.

My older brother---I have tried real hard and very hard to get you angry---so that for a moment you might hit the realization---that maybe your planning---some of your planning is wrong---.

The problem with you is---you don't step back and re-think the strategy---.

Genghis Khan did that---Julius Ceasar did that---Gen Schwartzkopff did that---.

During the first gulf war---Gen Swchartz and his team were all in to go wham bam smash thru the iraqi army---and a Colonel stated that won't work---he came up with a different plan---and you have to give credit to the american general---he changed direction in mid stride---listened to the plan and agreed upon it---.

The bottomline is---the enemy has to FEAR some of your equipment---because in fear---you make errors---.

Right now---it is all a GAMBLE by the Paf---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

(Corrections made in post .... the Vixen 1000E is a italian AESA I thought it was the british but it is a Italian firm I am certain I heard some chatter about Birtish gear)

Prunes and figs ...

Well I think KAMRA enhanced their delivery / production up to 16 planes per year reasonable bench mark.

But yes you are correct the production figures should be higher in future, I would like this to be around 45 planes per year (25 Units for Airforce, 5 Units for Training School, 15 Export )


What do you think about these big prunes

Seems like Block 3 Thunder will make our JF-17 fleet a bit more enhanced then F16 C/D


Some figs for F16 C/D would be nice too

Some figs and prunes would be nice for JF17 and F16 Fleet

Again only F16 experts can share if the Brtish Western Radar would work normally with F16 Fleet

Hypothetical Reality:

• JF17 - Block 3 : Order 80 (KLJ-7A) Chinese AESA (PRUNE) , and we have 88 planes with new radar
• F16 C/D : Order 80 British Selex AESA radars (FIGS) for the fleet again new radars

Surplus: 76 AN/APG-68(V)9 MLU radars , now in storage pulled out from F16 C/D fleet

• AN/APG-68(V)9 radar system (76 Pulled surplus radar units)

Get 76 EDA F16 A/B in open market and install the radars on these older birds, yes some effort will be needed some extra $$$ but much less then new planes

Only someone with proper knowledge on Radar tech , can answer if the British Selex AESA radar is installable on F16 C/D , I would imagine since every one touted about the data link or western systems interportabiliy the two techs would be easy to integrate , compatible Data Link or interface, I mean after all the Think Tanks who love F16 their number 1 argument has always been "well it will integrate with certain western tech" well I say now is the best time to put the statement to test

May be a small tender can go out $$$ so British firm can finish the project / figure out all technical challenges for such integration or upgrade. And also train our workers for integration work etc

Don't see why US would object to British Radar or Italian , on F16 C/D etc


I do understand Italian firm also manufactures or deal with us on Radar tech them might also have a AESA solution in case they are interested party


Again all hypothetical scenarios , who knows the US AESA platform may be available

comments ???

 

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

" Thank you SIR " is the appropriate answer---and not " thank you bhai "---to that retd officer. He is retd. military---give him the respect he deserves---.

And by the by---I did not call on

You did not call me....even here I am talking to someone and you are putting your chumcha in it.
You are such a coconut (Brown on the outside white on the inside) that you don't know that calling someone Bhai gives much more respect than 'sir'.

Additionally, the highest ranking officer in pakistan is the servant and protector of the poorest begger in Pakistan. To protect them they will give their lives.

You on the other hand keep worshipping the white drunks and tell us Pakistanis how dirty our country is when you have the honour to visit our sacred land.

ONE AGAIN DO NOT ADDRESS ME. YOU JUST SEEM TO HANG AROUND LIKE A BAD SMELL.[/QUOTE]

 

[MastanKhan]

Prunes and figs ...

Well I think KAMRA enhanced their delivery / production up to 16 planes per year reasonable bench mark.

But yes you are correct the production figures should be higher in future, I would like this to be around 45 planes per year (25 Units for Airforce, 5 Units for Training School, 15 Export )


What do you think about these big prunes

Seems like Block 3 Thunder will make our JF-17 fleet a bit more enhanced then F16 C/D


Some figs for F16 C/D would be nice too

Some figs and prunes would be nice for JF17 and F16 Fleet

Again only F16 experts can share if the Brtish Western Radar would work normally with F16 Fleet

Hypothetical Reality:

• JF17 - Block 3 : Order 80 (KLJ-7A) Chinese AESA (PRUNE) , and we have 88 planes with new radar
• F16 C/D : Order 80 British Selex AESA radars (FIGS) for the fleet again new radars

Surplus: 76 AN/APG-68(V)9 MLU radars , now in storage pulled out from F16 C/D fleet

• AN/APG-68(V)9 radar system (76 Pulled surplus radar units)

Get 76 EDA F16 A/B in open market and install the radars on these older birds, yes some effort will be needed some extra $$$ but much less then new planes

Only someone with proper knowledge on Radar tech , can answer if the British Selex AESA radar is installable on F16 C/D , I would imagine since every one touted about the data link or western systems interportabiliy the two techs would be easy to integrate , compatible Data Link or interface, I mean after all the Think Tanks who love F16 their number 1 argument has always been "well it will integrate with certain western tech" well I say now is the best time to put the statement to test

May be a small tender can go out $$$ so British firm can finish the project / figure out all technical challenges for such integration or upgrade. And also train our workers for integration work etc

Don't see why US would object to British Radar , on F16 C/D etc


I do understand Italian firm also manufactures or deal with us on Radar tech them might also have a AESA solution in case they are interested party


Again all hypothetical scenarios , who knows the US AESA platform may be available

comments ???

Hi,

I love those ' prunes and figs '---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Never hurt to have opposing voice , it makes you think out of box and question the status quo
When you brought up the concept , I just thought well hell we have two options for AESA. Why should we not give contract to both companies

For 80 Thunders (Chinese AESA Radar Tech)
For 80 F16 C/D upgrade (British AESA Radar Tech)
EDA 50-60 F16 A/B, gets the radar we strip out from our C/D block (Turkey does the integration upgrade, we order some kit parts )

Would be cheaper on the pocket and also gives us a nice technology boost

It would be such a shame if we don't take the chance of picking both AESA radar offerings and tie up a knot with both companies

If F16 C/D tech is really such a portable platform well this is the ideal time to test the theory how portable the technology platform really is , we actually attempt a radar upgrade based on our needs

 

[MastanKhan]

You did not call me....even here I am talking to someone and you are putting your chumcha in it.
You are such a coconut (Brown on the outside white on the inside) that you don't know that calling someone Bhai gives much more respect than 'sir'.

Additionally, the highest ranking officer in pakistan is the servant and protector of the poorest begger in Pakistan. To protect them they will give their lives.

You on the other hand keep worshipping the white drunks and tell us Pakistanis how dirty our country is when you have the honour to visit our sacred land.

ONE AGAIN DO NOT ADDRESS ME. YOU JUST SEEM TO HANG AROUND LIKE A BAD SMELL.

[/QUOTE]

Hi,

I am in a good mood today---so I will let it go---. You might try some baking soda---.

 

[Avicenna]

Never hurt to have opposing voice , it makes you think out of box and question the status quo
When you brought up the concept , I just thought well hell we have two options for AESA. Why should we not give contract to both companies

For 80 Thunders (Chinese AESA Radar Tech)
For 80 F16 C/D upgrade (British AESA Radar Tech)
EDA 50-60 F16 A/B, gets the radar we strip out from our C/D block (Turkey does the integration upgrade, we order some kit parts )

Would be cheaper on the pocket and also gives us a nice technology boost

It would be such a shame if we don't take the chance of picking both AESA radar offerings and tie up a knot with both companies

If F16 C/D tech is really such a portable platform well this is the ideal time to test the theory how portable the technology platform really is , we actually attempt a radar upgrade based on our needs

Opposing voices are always good in planning. Somewhere along the line I remember reading that the Israelis would have designated individuals giving the devils advocate viewpoint when planning something thus allowing discussion and planning of all possible contingencies.

In any case, we on the outside generally make overly simplistic arguments and I'm sure those on the inside laugh at our ignorance to the realities that truely exist.

However, the internet is amazing in that allows ideas to be shared democratically and hopefully our spirited discussions may give rise to thoughts that may not otherwise have been examined.

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

I am in a good mood today---so I will let it go---. You might try some baking soda---.

View attachment 390303[/QUOTE]
m sure u r in a good mood or else lol

 

[MastanKhan]

Opposing voices are always good in planning. Somewhere along the line I remember reading that the Israelis would have designated individuals giving the devils advocate viewpoint when planning something thus allowing discussion and planning of all possible contingencies.

In any case, we on the outside generally make overly simplistic arguments and I'm sure those on the inside laugh at our ignorance to the realities that truely exist.

However, the internet is amazing in that allows ideas to be shared democratically and hopefully our spirited discussions may give rise to thoughts that may not otherwise have been examined.

Hi,

For a well versed person---never underestimate your abilities---and never trust the abilities of those---whose promotions depend on being a " yessir ".

The problem over here is---that not a single air force personal has come forward and said" maybe we fckd it up "---" maybe there were other venues "---.

Them and their associates---all come here---and sing the only mantra---Paf is right---the Acm is right---We all are right---what we say is the truth and the whole truth and nothing else matters.

With the advent of the internet and the availability of public libraries and information pool---there is hardly anything hidden from an intelligent person---.

The basic fundamentals of power projections have not vanished---. Power of air superiority has not vanished---heavy strike platform with standoff weapons will rule the perch---.

The LRSAMS can only fire to a certain range---outside of those ranges smart standoff weapons can be launched from the flanks and can wreak havoc on the enemy---flying over a large water source---.

We already know that flying head to head over land against the enemy is suicide---. And just to expect that we cannot comprehend that---is not very intelligent.

The enemy's assets are not hidden---its capabilities are not hidden---.

The problem arises over here when we say---that as much of an advantage the enemy has over the sea route to attack us---we have the same advantage in reverse from that same sea route---and they have no comprehension to what we are saying----in their minds---it all reverts back to the land scenario---.

When we say that hitting the flanks would create a great panic in the enemy---they cannot comprehend it---because their planners and the ACM did not tell them that.

Why would it create a great panic---because some of the cities on the flank have never seen a major weapons strike---the money centers have not been hit---the fear and panic it would be astronomical.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

To say that Pakistan is ill equipped is not appropriate by any means
The assets we are capable and have been armed with sufficient weapons


Since 2007 , we inducted

• 80 JF17 Block 1 and Block 2 Thunder Crafts
  
• 18 Brand new F16 C/D into our fleet
  
• 14 F16 A/B from Jordan which to my understanding were upgraded

So that is 112 Fighter Jets that we added to our airforce , equipped with BVR missile and also equipped with a performing Radar in its generation. I thought this was quite exceptional improvement in Pakistani Airfroce

So certainly we have enhanced our Airforce , with proper planning and modernization goals

Not to Mention we have also taken responsibility to Sell certain quality fighter jets to external customers.


JF17 Thunder Block 3 is around the corner with even more enhancement

The airforce was the one areas where we did quite well and the current Air Chief has certainly presented the airforce well in all Areas

The real issue we really have is pace of modernization effort and we can certainly speed that up with quality cooperation in radar department


a) Chinese AESA radar JF17 Thunders
b) British or Italian Selex AESA radar for F16
c) Perhap also by engaging EDA F16 A/B and radar upgrade


With SD-10 feeling very positive about PAF steps taken

I heard this is a very reliable "Hello" weapon

We did also have 500+ candies for our neighbours

I don't know if we seem to be doing something right a modest improvement in our Airforce

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistan has survived this long without the armchair commanders on PDF. It will continue to exist.

But where is other half.

Just wanted to point out that JF17 Block 3 , will be a beauti

• Twin Seater
• Newer Engine
  
• Advance Weapons System

Commendable work by our Engineers and PAF bodies to make such a wonderful plane

This thread inspired me to go read full life cycle of JF17 thunder from inception to birth and induction and just excited about the Future

great work by KAMRA and strategic planners

Keep working hard we love you

We will keep poping out Thunders like M&M candy

In Current scenario JFT is at best a point defence fighter,in any engagement it will drop it's all tanks which already are carrying a drag penalty plus occupying three hard points,given short range coupled with small payload,it will not be leaving own borders.
Addition of a dorsel spine in A model like B is need of hour.That will increase on station time and will free three vital hard points.
No doubt in any conflict it will be our work horse carrying out bulk of our work.

Everybody is right in there opinion be it's @MastanKhan or sir @Bilal Khan 777.
PAF needs money to buy Aircraft obviously they can't do it on themselves,Every craftman desires to have best tools so that he can show his skills but not everyone has luxury to buy latest tools.
All defence procurement is done by Armed forces themselves because our politicians don't have any interest in Defence matters,do you think any politician will be reading that all,a big no once our sitting Defence Minister said F-16 is incapable of shooting down drones,with such qualified person as DM you don't need enemies.PAF is in dire need of a new platform but who will finance,Political Government,Defence is not in there any priority list because a new bought fighter will not be carrying name of any politician on it's body.
Behind all doubts we are poor nation,many people's will talk about corruption and blah blah in PAF but if even all of PAF personal start serving without pay,still you will not be able to procure anything substantial.
The bottom line is that PAF has to manage what little bheek it's given.Our Army is our nation's posture figure in Armed forces,they are getting huge chunk of budget and to be frank PAF isn't capable of doing any miracle with funds.
And last Air Chief not doing this on media bahi apna peet kon nanga karey kai dekhata hai,and to whom ACM should complain through media Government andhi hai kia,dekh nahi sakti and awam,wo log jonho nai is Government ko chuna
Last there is nothing like sabotage and incompetence at PAF's end give them money and they will buy,it's even miracle that PAF is in that condition that's too only due to outstanding management or else who likes to fly Mirages in active duty.
Our priorities are Metros and buses and roads not fighters,Orange line is lahore is exceeding 3 billion USD today,you can easily guess our priorities.

 

[el nino]

But where is other half.

In Current scenario JFT is at best a point defence fighter,in any engagement it will drop it's all tanks which already are carrying a drag penalty plus occupying three hard points,given short range coupled with small payload,it will not be leaving own borders.
Addition of a dorsel spine in A model like B is need of hour.That will increase on station time and will free three vital hard points.
No doubt in any conflict it will be our work horse carrying out bulk of our work.

Everybody is right in there opinion be it's @MastanKhan or sir @Bilal Khan 777.
PAF needs money to buy Aircraft obviously they can't do it on themselves,Every craftman desires to have best tools so that he can show his skills but not everyone has luxury to buy latest tools.
All defence procurement is done by Armed forces themselves because our politicians don't have any interest in Defence matters,do you think any politician will be reading that all,a big no once our sitting Defence Minister said F-16 is incapable of shooting down drones,with such qualified person as DM you don't need enemies.PAF is in dire need of a new platform but who will finance,Political Government,Defence is not in there any priority list because a new bought fighter will not be carrying name of any politician on it's body.
Behind all doubts we are poor nation,many people's will talk about corruption and blah blah in PAF but if even all of PAF personal start serving without pay,still you will not be able to procure anything substantial.
The bottom line is that PAF has to manage what little bheek it's given.Our Army is our nation's posture figure in Armed forces,they are getting huge chunk of budget and to be frank PAF isn't capable of doing any miracle with funds.
And last Air Chief not doing this on media bahi apna peet kon nanga karey kai dekhata hai,and to whom ACM should complain through media Government andhi hai kia,dekh nahi sakti and awam,wo log jonho nai is Government ko chuna
Last there is nothing like sabotage and incompetence at PAF's end give them money and they will buy,it's even miracle that PAF is in that condition that's too only due to outstanding management or else who likes to fly Mirages in active duty.
Our priorities are Metros and buses and roads not fighters,Orange line is lahore is exceeding 3 billion USD today,you can easily guess our priorities.

Such a sensible and honest post I salute you sir.

I also acknowledge that the PAF Is managed brilliantly when you consider they operate on a absolute shoe string budget

It is believed over 60% of the defense budget goes to army as you suggest the most powerful of all three services .

The air force and navy operate on budgets that are kin to a large African military and fraction of what the Indian Air Force and navy enjoy.

Yet despite these enormous financial constraints the leaders of the Air Force maintain over 20 sqds of fighters one of the largest in the world in numbers at least