Coercion Sabotage Or Incompetence :---

[Trango Towers]

survival is for the weak ! We want our Country to thrive. But with this mindset---------
Edit: Btw, Are you sure about your statement ?

Bro it is thriving now. I live in pakistan.
Check out the prices of houses in the booming property market. Check out prices of import cars. If there is no money how are people affording them. Go to restaurants in Islamabad and see the prices. No less than the west and they are,packed. We have issues with internal and external enemies but things are significantly improving. Pakistan will flourish you and me just have to do our bit

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I think there is a strong realisation within army that in such scenario PAF will be stretched too thin and this is why i think systems like FM-90 and LY-80 are inducted by the army and not airforce. While LY-80 is to provide SAM coverage to strategic assets FM-90 IMO will be to provide cover to forward army formations.
Having said so this still does not constitute for a decent air cover provided by PAF which unfortunately will not be there since apart from F-16s, all other platforms are short legged including JF-17. With CFT range can be extended but than it will be at the cost of payload and this is where a twin engine fighter comes in the scenario. Its not about standoff weapons only IMO, a twin engine plane has enough payload to deliver on enemy areas and than fight its way out with A2A weapons and does not need escort while planes like JF-17 or Mirages will need escorts, meaning more assets will be deployed for counter attack on Indian targets since none of PAF planes can carry sufficient A2A and A2G weaponry compared to Indian MKI and future Rafale.
PS no disrespect meant to Sir @Bilal Khan 777 or any other veteran. I have great respect for your reviews. Just sharing an opinion.

Kind opinions like yours, which are well thought out, are always welcome and encouraged.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Bro it is thriving now. I live in pakistan.
Check out the prices of houses in the booming property market. Check out prices of import cars. If there is no money how are people affording them. Go to restaurants in Islamabad and see the prices. No less than the west and they are,packed. We have issues with internal and external enemies but things are significantly improving. Pakistan will flourish you and me just have to do our bit

I agree with your observations, but we need to be mindful that there are differences between the fiscal power of people and the private sector, and the fiscal power of the state. The PAF relies on the latter, and unfortunately, that is the same pool of money pressured by government corruption, IMF debt repayments, possibly even CPEC repayments and payments for past programs. It's interesting because you hear this story in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Mexico too ... e.g. reasonable middle classes, private sector activity, etc, but states with thin funding power.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bro it is thriving now. I live in pakistan.
Check out the prices of houses in the booming property market. Check out prices of import cars. If there is no money how are people affording them. Go to restaurants in Islamabad and see the prices. No less than the west and they are,packed. We have issues with internal and external enemies but things are significantly improving. Pakistan will flourish you and me just have to do our bit

Hi,

The money from cars and luxuries is from loot and plunder---.

The price of housing is indeed outrageous---but a lot of that money has come either from outside or thru plunder---.

Which means that it is teetering on the verge of disaster as the industrial base is lagging way behind---.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well I have been some what worried as well however after reviewing the Air Cheif's interviews , his supreme calmness and control has given me some comfort that there is more then what meets the eyes

I am sure that PAF think tanks have thought about various platforms and also they have better understanding from budgetary prespective.

The present Air chief is certainly very honorable personality and we have to put the trust behind him with future strategy for new or used fighter Jets

Some initiative by our Airforce / Military / Navy that have certainly positively suprised me

a) Obviously the interview by Airforce cheif where he indicated developing future generation Human Resources for Aviation sector, arrival of Block 2/ Block 3 Units for Thunder.
7 out of 10

b) Military obviously with the Superb SAM deal , just really scored a big one with that purchase 10 out of 10

c) Navy with the Fast attack boat Serial production & Submarine order
8 out of 10

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I have been BLESSED with a NEGATIVE rating---IT MEANS THAT i HAVE PUT A SERIOUS DENT IN THE ARMOR------.

Thank you one more time.

Well I have been some what worried as well however after reviewing the Air Cheif's interviews , his supreme calmness and control has given me some comfort that there is more then what meets the eyes

I am sure that PAF think tanks have thought about various platforms and also they have better understanding from budgetary prespective.

The present Air chief is certainly very honorable personality and we have to put the trust behind him with future strategy for new or used fighter Jets

Hi,

A nation would rather have an absolutely obnoxious ars-ehole that waves the national flag for an air chief.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well man , your statement is bit one sided , just looking at negative part of story there is also great pluses in last 10 years

Airforce:
1- Between 2008-2017 , the Locally Manufactured plane helped replenish the Airforce with a platform which was designed according to the need for PAF.
2- We hit the Sales mile stone for Thunders , first few sales
3- Block 3 Thunder is on the cards
4- We did grew our Production figures , and participated in various airshows
5- Avionics research etc
6- Successful Awacs repair and recovery

Since we have limited funding , perhaps the hold back is due to appropriate platform or Tech to mature before investment is made

Obviously if PAF will induct a new bird or bird(s) they will look at various factors longivity or ability to service the Jets freely

The F16 deal certainly soured some sweet execution by PAF , but in end , it is a financial transaction , and not always grants are available for such purchases.

PAF planning was top notch , I mean now we have a fully functional JF17 program due to forward thinking and developing appropriate knowledge and education base


J10B
Typhoon
J-31

Offers some extensions to our Airforce and I am sure they are carefully analysing various options , but JF17 Block 3 , twin seater beauti , is being made as we speak

 

[Centurion2016]

The JF17 is not the issue here

Mastan point is being missed completely.

The adversary is armed to the teeth with huge numbers of heavey multi role fighters . These fighters give them options in how they fight an air campaign that PAF can never dream of.

In 2019 The rafale will simply add technology that PAF will struggle to match for several more years simply creating another capability gap

The threat to add a theatre range SAM capability via Russian S400 and Israeli Barak 8 systems adds another headache.

Clapping and applauding the Thunders arriving at $28 million each is fine But THE ADVERSARY is adding $75million and $120 million hi end fighters.

To date NO ATTEMPT has been made to answer the Rafale threat why ?

IF there is money what is the wait ? EVEN if a deal is signed today NO PLANE WILL ARRIVE until 2020 ,

SO WHATS THE ISSUE

That is what MASTAN is arguing

 

[MastanKhan]

Well man , your statement is bit one sided , just looking at negative part of story there is also great pluses in last 10 years

Airforce:
1- Between 2008-2017 , the Locally Manufactured plane helped replenish the Airforce with a platform which was designed according to the need for PAF.
2- We hit the Sales mile stone for Thunders , first few sales
3- Block 3 Thunder is on the cards
4- We did grew our Production figures , and participated in various airshows
5- Avionics research etc
6- Successful Awacs repair and recovery

Since we have limited funding , perhaps the hold back is due to appropriate platform or Tech to mature before investment is made

Obviously if PAF will induct a new bird or bird(s) they will look at various factors longivity or ability to service the Jets freely

The F16 deal certainly soured some sweet execution by PAF , but in end , it is a financial transaction , and not always grants are available for such purchases.

PAF planning was top notch , I mean now we have a fully functional JF17 program due to forward thinking and developing appropriate knowledge and education base


J10B
Typhoon
J-31

Offers some extensions to our Airforce and I am sure they are carefully analysing various options , but JF17 Block 3 , twin seater beauti , is being made as we speak

Hi,

The primary target of Paf is to be a very potent fighting force---. And on that front---it has failed miserably---.

The air force was not formed to be car salesmen---the aircraft sale does nothing to become a potent fighting force.

Due to our weak airforce---we have lost multiple battles against our arch enemy in the last 15 1/2 years since 9/11---on the tactical front and on the strategic level as well.

Our JF17 is a great program on its own merit---but on a tactical level---the first preference to fill the hole at the top tier---.

Once that was done---just like what China is doing---J20---the lower tier could have been filled up as needed---.

 

[Centurion2016]

that was done---just like what China is doing---J20---the lower tier could have been filled up as needed---.

Which is exactly what is happening across your LOC

They will have 20 Squadrons of Su30mki Rafale Mirage2000/5

And will then look to add 6-8 sqds of light COMBAT planes Tejas

But the punch and power will come from the 400 FIGHTERS in the Top Tier

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well certainly PAF will be thinking various strategies to help ease various concerns

 

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

The money from cars and luxuries is from loot and plunder---.

The price of housing is indeed outrageous---but a lot of that money has come either from outside or thru plunder---.

Which means that it is teetering on the verge of disaster as the industrial base is lagging way behind---.

Why don't you return to Pakistan and sort it out. Clearly Pakistanis are not capable. Maybe you Americans can guide us with your ethiCally earnt money. Nothing robbed from Iraq or Libya to say the least.

I agree with your observations, but we need to be mindful that there are differences between the fiscal power of people and the private sector, and the fiscal power of the state. The PAF relies on the latter, and unfortunately, that is the same pool of money pressured by government corruption, IMF debt repayments, possibly even CPEC repayments and payments for past programs. It's interesting because you hear this story in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Mexico too ... e.g. reasonable middle classes, private sector activity, etc, but states with thin funding power.

I agree...
Problems is somewhat exasperated by having a poor judicial system with high business taxes. Encouraging the private sector will only happen through investment and tax incentives.

I wrote the above because of seeing how some expats who don't care much for Pakistan sit abroad making judgements. Come back and take a stand. Make a difference or just shut up.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just wanted to point out that JF17 Block 3 , will be a beauti

• Twin Seater
• Newer Engine
  
• Advance Weapons System

Commendable work by our Engineers and PAF bodies to make such a wonderful plane

This thread inspired me to go read full life cycle of JF17 thunder from inception to birth and induction and just excited about the Future

great work by KAMRA and strategic planners

Keep working hard we love you

We will keep poping out Thunders like M&M candy

 

[MastanKhan]

Just wanted to point out that JF17 Block 3 , will be a beauti

• Twin Seater
• Newer Engine
  
• Advance Weapons System

Commendable work by our Engineers and PAF bodies to make such a wonderful plane

This thread inspired me to go read full life cycle of JF17 thunder from inception to birth and induction and just excited about the Future

great work by KAMRA and strategic planners

Keep working hard we love you

We will keep poping out Thunders like M&M candy

Hi,

That M&M candy is constipated---coming out real slow---and most often stuck---needs some prunes----or dried figs.

Maybe you Americans can guide us with your ethiCally earnt money. Nothing robbed from Iraq or Libya to say the least.
.

Sir,

I don't think you have the right frame of mind to comment on things---you are too irrationally emotional---.

Find some direction in your comments plz----thank you.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

It boils down to strategy, and as some of you have pointed out, PAF's strategy is not offensive, while Indian is entirely offensive. It will remain this way, and for rightful reasons. All of you, or some of you can argue this or that, but save your calories. Strategies are made over time, and this one we are confident and comfortable with. No matter what you call PAF decision makers, we have defended the air space when called to do it.

For the offensive, Pakistan defense forces don't intend to use aircraft. They wont be able to, anyway, due to Spyder, Arrow, S400, and other SAMs. Pakistan's offensive strategy includes use of strategic weapons, SOWs, and other methods. Now fanboys or not, the twin engine aircraft look great, sound great, feel great, but we are a country of limited resources, in the midst of entire fleet replacements.

To defend against the "superior" aircraft that you notice, we are not sitting idle. Some procurements you see already. Others are in the works. Whats in the plans cannot be shared publicly, no matter how much abuse you hurl at us.

The current plan, which you already sense and analyze, is to replace the ageing lot of fighters. This is a huge priority. If left unfilled in pursuit of top tier aircraft, will compromise our defense altogether. However, the evolving threat is not gone unnoticed, and appropriate actions are in process to counter them. Pakistan Paindabad.