CM-400AKG: A tough job for the Indian Navy

[Bullet500]

As I said Foolish people !

tumhare kehne se koi foolish nai ban jata! And that effective answer is just BC(Bull Crap)!

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

There was no real question in my post in the first place . I just wanted a ' reality check ' for people who had some serious doubts on the existence , capability and the status of the missile .

I will make it simple for you , forget the ' carrier sinking part ' here which comes has a huge psychological effect for the enemy , you do not have a Battle Group ready as we speak , the new aircraft carrier hasn't been delivered and the old one is just good for training . Our naval doctrine is very simple and known as AA/AD ( Anti Access / Area Denial ) , we aren't going to let any navy enforce a blockade on our Sea Lines of Communication ( SLOC ) and the defensive gear we have bought in accordance with that , is more than capable of ensuring that . Enforcing a blockade despite what some may believe is a really tough job . The CM400 AKG is another potent weapon in the Pakistani arsenal for the strategy of sea denial . Low cost so to be procured in large numbers and highly effective against threats . What if a naval ship and not the carrier itself ? You want to enforce an effective blockade , logic dictates that you have to come close and in this case , that distance is relatively just too low .

Why exactly are some members forgetting that ' aircraft's radar range ' is just one factor , it can be increased by other force multipliers besides the missile itself has its own guidance/radar hence the ' fire and forget ' part ? This whole probability calculation of yours is based on one fallacy - that the aircraft carrier can stay far enough and yet do the trick . How close enough are you talking about when we are just too close to each other ? Besides that , where is that JFT cant beat the Mig29K's coming from ? Forget the J11B , its just in another league if I am to discount your underestimation of the Chinese weapons and their capabilities , the continued evolution and the point they are in the learning curve .


The CM-400AKG missile is a fire and forget weapon with range of 180 to 250 kilometers. It is available with different seeker options depending upon the mission profile. Chinese side seems to be offering an active radar seeker and an imaging infrared seeker capable of target-recognition (TR).CM-400AKG can be pre-programmed to destroy the ground targets with percision by uploading the digital imagery of the target or it can be retargeted using its active radar seeker.

if our carrier is not ready(but we have been operating another carrier and practicing with the mig 29k's ) same is the case with your weapon nothing much is known about it , you also needs some test fires, exercises etc but it doesn't matter because CM400 has really no chance of reaching up to our carrier, yes it has a chance against other ships around it.Second thing is that your force multipliers are at least as vulnerable as our ship so they wouldn't play a big role apart from giving the general direction of the ships or fighters.if you fire the CM 400 towards a general direction and hope it will home on itself then it's very unlikely as austerliz said it didn't work well for the Americans.besides the chance of the missile failing itself, our sams like barak 8 and barak 1 can shoot it down, only thing in favour of your weapon is it's terminal speed because of velocity, it can't do the maneuvers because it's not powered in the terminal phase.

 

[Safriz]

CM-400AKG may be a varient of chines weishi rockets and the specific model on which the missile mabe based is probably SY-400.

Air launched Brahmos is 2.5 tons and can carry 300kg warhead @ mach 3? on impact say 1 ton of fuel has been conumed,and the remaining total mass is 1.5
tons,then the kinetic energy will be equal to 1500kg X 1020.9 m/s = 780300000 joules ? this equals 186 kilos of TNT. add that with 300kg warhead,then total explosive power becomes 486 kg TNT on
impact... but an MKI can carry one Brahmos? A JF-17 can carry 2 CM-400 AKG
Warhead size same as many other specs is unknown,but probably 100-150 KG Starting Mass 900 KG...
Say fuel on board is 400KG,then at maximum range mass on impact will be 500KG?
500KG X 1872m/s (MACH 5.5) = 875716961 Joules The total kinetic energy on Impact converted into equivalent energy Released by TNT
explosion come as 200 KG of Equivalent explosive energy on Impact without
Warhead.. Now add Warhead to equation.. Total Explosive power 200KG + 150KG = 350KG For two missiles its 700KG TNT compared to 486 KG TNT for one air launched Brahmos

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

CM-400AKG may be a varient of chines weishi rockets and the specific model on which the missile mabe based is probably SY-400.

Air launched Brahmos is 2.5 tons and can carry 300kg warhead @ mach 3? on impact say 1 ton of fuel has been conumed,and the remaining total mass is 1.5
tons,then the kinetic energy will be equal to 1500kg X 1020.9 m/s = 780300000 joules ? this equals 186 kilos of TNT. add that with 300kg warhead,then total explosive power becomes 486 kg TNT on
impact... but an MKI can carry one Brahmos? A JF-17 can carry 2 CM-400 AKG
Warhead size same as many other specs is unknown,but probably 100-150 KG Starting Mass 900 KG...
Say fuel on board is 400KG,then at maximum range mass on impact will be 500KG?
500KG X 1872m/s (MACH 5.5) = 875716961 Joules The total kinetic energy on Impact converted into equivalent energy Released by TNT
explosion come as 200 KG of Equivalent explosive energy on Impact without
Warhead.. Now add Warhead to equation.. Total Explosive power 200KG + 150KG = 350KG For two missiles its 700KG TNT compared to 486 KG TNT for one air launched Brahmos

Ignoring most important factors for anti ship missiles,shorter range,unlike brahmos which does sustained supersonic cruise,this only acquires its speed at terminal stage.
And most important of all -not sea skimming.Brahmos can graze sea level at 10 m altitude and perform evasive manuevres making it very difficult to intercept because
1]its speed
2]Low altitude means under combat envelope of shipborne SAm,or at extreme angles.
3]High-G evasive manuevres.

CM-400 can't even hit fast moving targets.

 

[Safriz]

Sukhoi30s marked to carry ALCM brahmos will carry 3.
2nd brahmos has sustained supersonic cruise[cg-400 reaches its speed at terminal stage],high G evasive manuevres,and most imp sea skimming at mere 10 m altitude almost grazing the sea making very difficult to intercept it coz its extreme angle and below missile's combat envelope.

Without sea skimming against modern AD liable to be shot down easily.CG-400 not very manuevreable at all,can't even hit fast moving targets.

Sukhoi can carry only one Brahmos on central pylon..that too after structural modifications...
Not all sukhois can carry brahmos,only the specially modyfied ones. All JF-17 can carry 2 CM-400 without structural modifications.
Carrying 2.5 ton missile on wings isnt possible.
Where did you get your info?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Sukhoi can carry only one Brahmos on central pylon..that too after structural modifications...
Not all sukhois can carry brahmos,only the specially modyfied ones. All JF-17 can carry 2 CM-400 without structural modifications.
Carrying 2.5 ton missile on wings isnt possible.
Where did you get your info?

Hmm,sry.That was a mistake.
As of now with slight structural modification it can carry 1.
But deal for 42 super sukhois with heavy redesigned airframe and strengthened wing pylons can concievably carry 3.It would negate the RCS reductions made by the structural modifications to te super sukhoi though.
Thats what i heard anyway.
Right now can carry 1 with slight modification.

 

[alimobin memon]

tumhare kehne se koi foolish nai ban jata! And that effective answer is just BC!

Indians ko Behno pe gaaliya deni ki boht jaldi hoti hai ... Bhai Jo kehna hai kaho I like his theory. Mujhe Gaaliya nai khaani its not a literate thing so sorry for my post !

 

[Safriz]

Ignoring most important factors for anti ship missiles,shorter range,unlike brahmos which does sustained supersonic cruise,this only acquires its speed at terminal stage.
And most important of all -not sea skimming.Brahmos can graze sea level at 10 m altitude and perform evasive manuevres making it very difficult to intercept because
1]its speed
2]Low altitude means under combat envelope of shipborne SAm,or at extreme angles.
3]High-G evasive manuevres.

CM-400 can't even hit fast moving targets.

Brahmos has some better specifications than CM-400, that cannt be denied...but at higher cost and with complications

 

[farhan_9909]

funny no ones still know

it is now official that CM-400akg is based off the Yj-12 cruise missile not some rockets etc

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

funny no ones still know

it is now official that CM-400akg is based off the Yj-12 cruise missile not some rockets etc

Everyone knowledgable knows,who gave this ludicrous rocket theory anyway?
yj-12 has even higher terminal speed [around mach 6]and can do supersonic cruise but lacks again sea skimming and high-G evasive manuevre.Its good points are good range,good anti jamming ability.

 

[Safriz]

funny no ones still know

it is now official that CM-400akg is based off the Yj-12 cruise missile not some rockets etc

YJ-12 is an air breathing missile..CM-400 is solid fuelled..
How a non air breathing Quasi Ballistic missile was based on a liquid fuelled cruise missile?

 

[Secur]

if our carrier is not ready(but we have been operating another carrier and practicing with the mig 29k's ) same is the case with your weapon nothing much is known about it , you also needs some test fires, exercises etc but it doesn't matter because CM400 has really no chance of reaching up to our carrier, yes it has a chance against other ships around it.Second thing is that your force multipliers are at least as vulnerable as our ship so they wouldn't play a big role apart from giving the general direction of the ships or fighters.if you fire the CM 400 towards a general direction and hope it will home on itself then it's very unlikely as austerliz said it didn't work well for the Americans.besides the chance of the missile failing itself, our sams like barak 8 and barak 1 can shoot it down, only thing in favour of your weapon is it's terminal speed because of velocity, it can't do the maneuvers because it's not powered in the terminal phase.

I know about the decommissioned INS Vikrant and the only current AC in IN's service INS Viraat which spends most of its time in docks getting refits because of the age of the warship and hence only good for training for future AC's . The Admiral Gorshkov hasn't been delivered yet and it will take years to form a modern carrier group complete with Mig29K's . The PN will continue to modernize in the meantime , the race continues as always . Same isn't true for CM400 AKG which is just a modified version of another Chinese system SY 400 devised for naval warfare , now we didn't develop it but acquired it from Beijing hence no one needs it to ' test fire ' after purchasing it and knowing the Chinese , they will never disclose the complete information or show the test footages , they like to operate in almost total radio silence with brief information leaking from insiders , that is their MO . But still comparatively a lot of information is available on this missile . Now , for ' the missile isn't ready ' part , trust me I have no interest arguing with denialists when the JFT's project director says that it is fully mature weapon which has been integrated with the aircraft and is currently in service .

The CM400 AKG will have every chance of reaching your carrier if it comes close to Pakistani coastline for enforcing blockade , we are just too close for you to enjoy that advantage . This probability of discarding a threat altogether , trust me , doesn't work fine for strategists . Besides , the carrier battle group remains vulnerable to a salvo of these ' quasi-ballistic missiles ' . The missile flies at the supersonic speeds during its flight and goes hypersonic at the time of impact hence the sheer focus on ' kinetic impact ' . The force multipliers aren't expected to provide the ' lock ' on the ships but rather the general idea of their position and threat level . The missile will fail itself ? Am I seeing some new underestimation of the Beijing's weapons capabilities ? A lot of variables will be at play , if it was that simple of every missile being brought down by SAM's , there would have been no need for these missile to be developed . As I am aware , you are currently developing the Brahmos II capable of hypersonic speeds , what for ? Since the SAM's on our ships can bring it down going by your own logic . If you have terrain hugging and stealth in mind , I suggest you read a bit about C80xx series of anti-ship missiles . Completely different type but some of the features are same or even at times , greater .

 

[Safriz]

Everyone knowledgable knows,who gave this ludicrous rocket theory anyway?
yj-12 has even higher terminal speed [around mach 6]and can do supersonic cruise but lacks again sea skimming and high-G evasive manuevre.Its good points are good range,good anti jamming ability.

Sea skimming isnt that important in this day and era when AWACS and survailance drones with look down radars can easily spot and track an incoming missile,no matter how low its flying.

 

[Secur]

Completely agreed. But can you please inform a few compatriots of yours that the missile in question is not hypersonic..unless its an aircraft launched DTBM..or worse a BM itself. Conventionally shaped objects cannot sustain a hypersonic cruise within atmosphere..the very reason why countries like the US are spending millions if not billions in mastering the shaping regime for hypersonic CMs. Itna toh kar de yaar ek yaar ke liye...at least let them have their facts right..then people from both sides can continue dick measuring.

@Dillinger It is widely known that it is a quasi-ballistic missile which isn't hypersonic during its whole flight time but during the terminal dive reaching speeds of around < Mach 5.5 . After the launch , it attains a high altitude and flies at supersonic speeds during the flight and later terminates with hypersonic dive at the target . Besides , its ' fire and forget ' and fully capable of flying autonomously under AW conditions , the CASIC offers different seeker configurations .

Mate , personally , I am seriously disappointed with the ' quality of posts ' in the very thread with people more interested in throwing cheap banters and rhetoric rather than discussing the topic in a positive manner .

 

[gambit]

Dude you are associated with the forum for almost 3 years now, and you are giving this ****. To carry 300kg warhead, do you have any idea how much structural weight is required, let alone be the fuel weight. And that too travel distance of 240km and that too at supersonic speed.

For the above specification to be true, it has to be in the weight class of Brahmos. And I assume Russians are miles ahead of China in designing anti-ship missiles. Thus if you compared it to a little old Russian technology, P-270 comes close to its technology. So according to that logic, it should weigh close to 4.5 ton impossible to be carried by a aircraft.

Second option is kh-35 latest generation missile. To carry 145 kg warhead, its weight is 610kg with just 130 km range and traveling at only Mach 0.8 So if it is to carry 300kg warhead,its weight has to be 1200kg and make that a little more than twice, if it is to travel at supersonic speed i.e. 2.8t-3t. What more or less is the specification of Brahmos.

Hold up...

Rafael/Lockheed Martin AGM-142 Popeye/Have Nap

The AGM-142 have very similar specs to CM-400KG and in the source above, there is an F-16 with a -142 on the port wing, which would mean there would be one on the starboard wing as well. However, the Popeye's distance is much shorter and this hint at reduced propellant compared to the CM-400.

The thing you should understand about air launched weapons is that many also exploits aerodynamics to enhance distance. When I was on the F-111, we had low altitude -- hilltops not mountain tops -- toss bombing training sorties that 'launched' semi-smart bombs that have only basic stabilizing fins and they traveled from launch point to slightly over 50km, and those bombs were several hundreds kilos in weight. Doubled that distance for higher altitude.

The maneuver goes this way: The WSO readied the laser designator to be fired upon a known and fixed ground target, meaning he neither have visual nor radar contact with this target at this time. The pilot performs a quasi-aerobatic sharp climb/turn and at this point, the WSO will have radar contact with said ground target. The WSO will then fire his laser designator and the (automagically) released bomb will focused on the laser guidance beam.

The Popeye and the CM-400 removed much of this technically and physically demanding work but at the cost of weapons deliverable per sortie, meaning these air-to-surface (ASM) missiles have their own guidance, of course with different levels of sophistication, better aerodynamic exploitation, and propulsion. And this mean a larger weapon that will limit how many a fighter can carry per sortie. For an F-16 size fighter = 2. Or 4 if the threat is closed enough that external tanks are not needed.

It is a different issue if the speed is Mach or not because if the launch is anything higher than hilltops the odds of forewarning by the enemy increases. On the other hand, if the desire is to deny the enemy as much forewarning as possible, then low altitude flight is a must and this will require some design and operational compromises.

When you go air-to-ground, gravity and aerodynamics are assets that must be balanced by you -- the designer -- in order to achieve customer's requirements, notably distance. It is only when you go ground-to-air is when gravity is a negative. Airborne targets are considered extremely complex targets in terms of guidance sophistication. Distance traveled by such a missile is not the same as distance from launch point. The analogy here is if I drive in a circle, I can drive for as long as my fuel hold out but did I really go any where? Airborne targets have this maneuverability unpredictability that make warhead payload versus propulsion a much greater compromise.

In air-to-ground, your destination is half assured -- the ground -- of course. What next is the complex part, the precise location of the ground and this is where guidance and aerodynamic exploitation are required. So as long as your fins are large enough and that you have enough of them, and if you have propulsion, the issue is how long the distance.

Because the ground target is likely to be fixed, less for limited mobility, your guidance sophistication needs only to concentrate on sensors avionics and less for flight controls avionics. Potentially more room for warhead payload. Flight controls avionics, which includes hardware and software, would most likely use only 'bang-bang' guidance, the most simple set of flight control laws...

GBU-12 Paveway II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paveway II laser-guided bombs use what is known as "bang bang" guidance. This means the bomb's fins deflect fully, rather than proportionally when it is attempting to guide to the laser spot. For example, if it sees the laser spot and determines that it should make a change it deflects its fins until it has over-corrected and then it deflects back the opposite direction, creating a sinusoidal type of flight path. This type of guidance may be less efficient at times.

The analogy here is if I can steer my car only from wheel limit to wheel limit and nothing in between, it would make for very rough maneuvers if there any multiple course corrections. But this simple flight control system would leave more room for warhead payload. Against fixed or limited mobility targets, bang-bang guidance is good enough.

What this all mean is that it is not impossible to have an air-to-ground missile with the specs in discussion. If an F-16 can take off with several thousands of kg in non-propulsive bombs, it can certainly carry two air launched cruise missiles each with warhead of a few hundreds kg.