Clashes in London after Lord Nazir calls for Kashmir's independence on Republic Day

[El Sidd]

More than regional heavyweight my friend .
World is bigger than South Asia and India is a major power in the world .

Our PM already said ,we didnt isolated any nation only terrorists and we are successful in that .
We dont have any Paranoia .

Bhaddiya hai

 

[SrNair]

I partially agree with you. One of the ways of achieving peace in sub-continent is dividing Pakistan into two or three parts without nuclear teeth and no ability to defend itself. Such country or countries will know their place and will avoid confrontation with the big brother in the region. Pretty much a couple of Bangladeshs on your western border.

Achieving this however is next to impossible right now without risk of turning the region into nuclear wasteland.

See the fact that we are enemies has something to do with Kashmir but that is not the only reason. We are a much smaller country compared to India which has aspirations to become a global power, and rightly so considering its size. So India wants to play the big brother part in the region for a start, it does not necessarily mean it wants to gobble up our lands, it just want us to align our strategic interests with it. For example we should give them access to Afghanistan and stop influencing that country and supporting the elements that are in conflict with Indian interests.

Now it seems only logical that as a smaller country we should actually do that and prosper. But here is the catch, the sole reason that we created a separate state for us was that we did not want to live under Hindu hegemony once the British left. Now accepting India as the big brother in the region will negate the very basis of our existence. We just can't accept it.

And because our population, size and above all economy is much smaller than India, we consider India as an existential threat. We are not an existential threat to you, just a nuisance if we don't take nukes into consideration.

The real danger to region is that as the Indian economy and global influence increase and the disparity between conventional forces of our two states increase further, we in Pakistan will start relying on unconventional means more and more. On the other hand, the urge to put pesky little Pakistan in its place in New Delhi will increase further. This is a dangerous combination.

So if we continue on the same path, there is a possibility that you'll be able to disarm us, not without a conflict though that I assure you. Or we will turn the South Asia into nuclear wasteland and blow your aspirations of becoming a global power in that mushroom along with ourselves of course.

The path to peace in the region, the way I see it, is if Pakistani economy improves dramatically. Let me explain how. Currently it is 8 times smaller to that of India, hence a 5 times smaller defense budget even when we spend a bigger percentage of our GDP on defense. There is potential in our economy to grow at a much higher pace than it currently is. If we attain double digit growth for a couple of decades we will be able to reduce the gap to a much more manageable 4 times. That is pretty much the difference between you and Chinese.

What this does is that it will change our stance against each other from enemy to rival. See the Dokalam episode, neither the Chinese nor the Indians wanted it to grow into a full fledged conflict. Their trade still flourish after that episode.

We will have a healthy defense budget and hence will rely less on unconventional means, and it will also make India less of an existential threat. India will start seeing us a rival, not that pesky little neighbor who should know its place and we will have peace in the region.

P.S There was a time after our two countries came into existence that we in Pakistan were ready to accept India as big brother and work with it. Yes even after 48 war and before we got into Seato and Cento we wanted to have mutual defense pact with India as we had problems with Chinese on our northern border just like Indians and we wanted to stay neutral in the cold war. But our diplomatic efforts were rebuked by Nehru by saying mutual defense against Whom, well he saw in 62 what we were talking about. This forced us to get into not a very favorable border agreement with China. Then hawks like Bhutto got into the mix and things went south.

You have some strong points that we all will agree .
And most of the points are absolutely right .
But there is a gap that neither you nor your diplomats cant understand .
The formal healthy relation between India and China .
For us China is a challenge not enemy .
China is also a opportunity .China needs Indian market and India needs Chinese market .
China has something to offer .
What you have to offer us ?
Nothing .
You dont need size and population to become influential .Why you interfere in Afghanistan ?
Our relations with Afghans is at an extend that they allow us and Afghans dont like you and that is not because of us .

Your each and every action was for unnecessarily provoke India.
But a formal trade relation with Pakistan and Had Pakistan been a big market you would have been able to influence our policies without a single bullet .
Israel is a tiny nation ,still they will find someway to influence other global powers .


P.S It was also vice versa .Even until 2008 .
But a single act of 26/11 toppled everything ,even minds of 99% neutral Indians

 

[Sharpshooter12]

You have some strong points that we all will agree .
And most of the points are absolutely right .
But there is a gap that neither you nor your diplomats cant understand .
The formal healthy relation between India and China .
For us China is a challenge not enemy .
China is also a opportunity .China needs Indian market and India needs Chinese market .
China has something to offer .
What you have to offer us ?
Nothing .

You are saying pretty much the same thing what I mentioned.

Yes India is a big market for China, and for the west as well. Now India was the second largest population for most part of the last century yet the global attitude towards it was indifferent for the most part of that century. Reason being abysmal economic condition and a very low purchasing power of that large population. It is only after the fast paced growth of its economy in the last couple of decades and an increase in the purchasing power of its populace that it actually became a lucrative market.

Now Pakistan is the 5th largest population in the world after the recent census, its larger than population of Germany, UK and France combined, so that makes it a large market. But when the purchasing power of majority of its populace is meager, its not a lucrative market at all. Now if it sustains a healthy double digit growth for a couple of decades resulting in massive increase in its purchasing power it will naturally become hard to not consider the option of trading with it.

You dont need size and population to become influential .Why you interfere in Afghanistan ?
Our relations with Afghans is at an extend that they allow us and Afghans dont like you and that is not because of us .

There is no way on earth that Pakistan can remain indifferent to what is happening in Afghanistan. Our second largest ethnic group making 20% of our population is their largest, same reason you had to intervene in Sri Lanka. If you read history, right after Pakistan came into existance we saw animosity from that country. They incited our population, they consider whole of FATA, KPK and parts of Punjab and Baluchistan as their own, they invaded our lands twice in 50's and it was way before we had any influence in that country at all. We only started returning the favor in the late 70's.

We can not accept a pro-Indian government in Kabul, it will be disastrous for us. BLA, BRA and TTP had safe havens in Afghanistan and continue to do so. There is no longer an inch of land that TTP controls in Pakistan and yet their organization continue to exist because of their sanctuaries across the border. Can Kabul say the same about the Taliban who control 40% of their country and would not need any safe havens across the border to survive. And now the news that ISIS sprouting in provinces all along our border, we have to interfere to survive.

P.S It was also vice versa .Even until 2008 .
But a single act of 26/11 toppled everything ,even minds of 99% neutral Indians

It was never vice versa. See those

 

[SrNair]

You are saying pretty much the same thing what I mentioned.

Yes India is a big market for China, and for the west as well. Now India was the second largest population for most part of the last century yet the global attitude towards it was indifferent for the most part of that century. Reason being abysmal economic condition and a very low purchasing power of that large population. It is only after the fast paced growth of its economy in the last couple of decades and an increase in the purchasing power of its populace that it actually became a lucrative market.

Now Pakistan is the 5th largest population in the world after the recent census, its larger than population of Germany, UK and France combined, so that makes it a large market. But when the purchasing power of majority of its populace is meager, its not a lucrative market at all. Now if it sustains a healthy double digit growth for a couple of decades resulting in massive increase in its purchasing power it will naturally become hard to not consider the option of trading with it.

There is no way on earth that Pakistan can remain indifferent to what is happening in Afghanistan. Our second largest ethnic group making 20% of our population is their largest, same reason you had to intervene in Sri Lanka. If you read history, right after Pakistan came into existance we saw animosity from that country. They incited our population, they consider whole of FATA, KPK and parts of Punjab and Baluchistan as their own, they invaded our lands twice in 50's and it was way before we had any influence in that country at all. We only started returning the favor in the late 70's.

We can not accept a pro-Indian government in Kabul, it will be disastrous for us. BLA, BRA and TTP had safe havens in Afghanistan and continue to do so. There is no longer an inch of land that TTP controls in Pakistan and yet their organization continue to exist because of their sanctuaries across the border. Can Kabul say the same about the Taliban who control 40% of their country and would not need any safe havens across the border to survive. And now the news that ISIS sprouting in provinces all along our border, we have to interfere to survive.


It was never vice versa. See those

That is between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
That doesnt mean India couldnt have a relation with Afghanistan and they like us in there .
So we will be always there.

 

[HAIDER]

Sure...Kashmir is the only link that basically holding on to India to turning into complete Hindu nation...If Kashmir gets separaed in the name of religion, trust me, people like you will have very tough time in India...

adopt the 3rd option provided by Musharraf. And Indian govt was agreed. Either jointly observe or both stay back.