Churches burnt in India

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Jana,

VHP and Bajrang Dal are not Politicians and a vast majority of Indians do not subscribe to their manner of ensuring their agenda.

It is like saying that those who actively participate in the Shia Sunni sectarian violence in Pakistan are Islamic politicians. Are they?

The action of the VHP and Bajrang Dal is disgusting and only a depraved person would say that these actions are laudatory!

It is condemned by the Indians are reprehensible.

infact all minorities have rights in pakistan

It is also a misconception that minorities have rights in Pakistan. Hoodood is the first instrument that ensures that the right of minorities vanish in the hay!

Atrocities are reprehensible, be the in Pakistan or in India or anywhere in the world, but they should not lead to bogus 'holier than thou' stuff like, "infact all minorities have rights in pakistan".

I would not like to get into this angle of the posts since there are enough to show so on Google and it will only vitiate the atmosphere.

But, yes, the burning of Churches is disgraceful and reprehensible.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

i had made a comment on a different thread, which was regarding the economic condition of muslims in india.

salim then proceeded to attack my comments using the alleged plight of minorities in pakistan as the main thrust of his rebuttle.

the killing of christians, the state sponsured killing of muslims then the election of the leaders of these parties to govt shows the terrible social plight of minorities and of course the general very low standards of living for the vast majority of that country. i am glad that that we have our own country and not forced to sing vandramatram, infact all minorities have rights in pakistan aswell as enjoying a far better standard of living.
the killing of the priest is a henious crime and makes a shambles of an alleged secular society. but india is a country of smoke and mirrors.

Read my above post and my lips.

Enough can be churned out to show the state of minority Moslems like the Ahmediyya and also the Christian and the attack on their churches.

So, lets drop it and concentrate on this disgusting and reprehesible act of the VHP.

It is immaterial whether these acts were 'well planned"/ spontaneous/ or sheer mischievous. Whatever it is, it is not acceptable in any form and the guilty must be punished and the book thrown at them.

 

[Cheetah786]

OK! All You guys. Please read the following links.

FOXNews.com - Two Pakistan Churches Burned - U.S. & World

Catholic church burned after desecration rumor - Discussion Forums US

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/flames.htm


People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks now..... should we?

Merry Christmas to all by the way - I am a Christian - no regrets either.

So funny An American is telling Pakistanis about the double slandered its like pot calling the kettle black.
divide and rule invented and implemented by west if i were you i wouldn't try to take the high grounds here.
Over a million killed in Iraq so far and millions homeless yet you have no regrets either .fundamentalist Muslims fighting Christians have there reason(wrong they may be).Hindus fighting Christian's is not the same and cannot be compared.

double standard of Western media how this news is kept quite yet God forbid if this was to happen in any Muslim country this would have been all over the media repeated till the people who died had there grand kids have grand kids.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

So funny An American is telling Pakistanis about the double slandered its like pot calling the kettle black.
divide and rule invented and implemented by west if i were you i wouldn't try to take the high grounds here.
Over a million killed in Iraq so far and millions homeless yet you have no regrets either .fundamentalist Muslims fighting Christians have there reason(wrong they may be).Hindus fighting Christian's is not the same and cannot be compared.

double standard of Western media how this news is kept quite yet God forbid if this was to happen in any Muslim country this would have been all over the media repeated till the people who died had there grand kids have grand kids.

All actions are comparable.

You can't have your cake and eat it too!

The WoT has nothing to do with Islam being attacked.

Therefore, the terrorists have no reason to consider it so and give statements attempting to fool the Islamic world with their warped interpretation of the Koran, which some gullible chaps believe as true!

Enough has been said in reiteration that Islam is for peace, Islam is not against mankind and suicide bombing is unIslamic!

Therefore, I will surely be surprised if someone tells me that this is not so and this is not what is being propagated as the tenets of Islam.

 

[TexasJohn]

So funny An American is telling Pakistanis about the double slandered its like pot calling the kettle black.
divide and rule invented and implemented by west if i were you i wouldn't try to take the high grounds here.
Over a million killed in Iraq so far and millions homeless yet you have no regrets either .fundamentalist Muslims fighting Christians have there reason(wrong they may be).Hindus fighting Christian's is not the same and cannot be compared.

double standard of Western media how this news is kept quite yet God forbid if this was to happen in any Muslim country this would have been all over the media repeated till the people who died had there grand kids have grand kids.

You are confusing double standards in foreign policy with what is wrong in our native lands - and let me explain that.

I am no fan of the Iraq war - period. OBL attacked us and we are effing around not REALLY going after him. We are blowing money on a "not gonna happen" project ( but that is a brand new thread)

I am talking very simply about the fact that mobs in the sub-continent can go amok burning churches/hindu temples/ ancient mosques - what ever.

I am talking about the fact that when this happens, regardless of the cause of the day, innocent people and property suffer.

Ex: I am pi$$ed of at this missile strike in Iraq, so I am going to run crazy and burn down Pakistani McDonalds (owned by Pakistanis), burn personal cars on the street (owned by Pakistanis) and destroy Pakistani property.

I have read about this in BOTH countries.

How many times do you hear of American protesters destroying American property because they are pi$$ed of at someone else?

They would be in jail - as felons.

This is a Law and Order situation - regardless of how you want to flavor it - be it Hindu, Muslim or nut jobs in either country

I am simply talking about how each country has treated it's own people. Were the Pakistani or Indian Christians NOT citizens of their own country?

What is the point in being a "nuclear power" if basic safety of citizens cannot be achieved? - end sermon!!

American foriegn policy, it's rights and wrongs could cover a whole section of threads. I would be happy to discuss them with you.

 

[Vinod2070]

of course the general very low standards of living for the vast majority of that country.

What makes you think so? The per capita income of both countries is almost similiar (slightly more for India). In India the land reforms though not perfect are much better than Pakistan, so we don't have a feudal class. The GINI index (which measures inequalities) is not worse for India, The official poverty levels are not worse for India, the social care programme though not perfect tries to reach the poorest people and so on.

The point is not that one country has a better living standard than the other but that both are not in good shape as far as the poverty and misery of a large number of people are concerned. I really hope we can stop trying to score cheap points on these issues where both countries have a lot to do and focus on debating something worthwhile.

Just a fact here. HDI rank which is supposed to take care of the living conditions in various countries, ranks both of us very low.

India: 129
Pakistan: 134

Nothing to be proud of for either of us, and nothing to try to score cheap points either.

If trying to focus only on the supposed negatives of the other party while neglecting or ignoring similiar or worse happening at home gives you pleasure, be my guest by all means.

I would encourage you to go by facts and not believe the street rumours.

 

[roadrunner]

OK! All You guys. Please read the following links.

FOXNews.com - Two Pakistan Churches Burned - U.S. & World

Catholic church burned after desecration rumor - Discussion Forums US

http://www.balaams-***.com/alhaj/flames.htm


People who live in glass houses should not throw rocks now..... should we?

Merry Christmas to all by the way - I am a Christian - no regrets either.

15 churches in one day against 2 over a decade is hardly comparable.

 

[Flintlock]

Looks to me like a cheap power struggle between the local politicians. Lets see how it plays out. It'll be better if the VHP faction comes out on top.

 

[Flintlock]

15 churches in one day against 2 over a decade is hardly comparable.

I'd compare that figure with the population of christians in Pakistan, and also whether its even possible to be openly Christian in some parts of Pakistan.

Riots happen when one faction regards the other as a comparable enemy. Considering the number of christians in Pakistan and the political power enjoyed by them (none), its not surprising that there are fewer riots against them.

Also the "15 churches" figure looks bigger than it is. Those "churches" were nothing more than tiny shacks.

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams,

Yes...

Two churches being burned in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is nothing compared to 15 churches being burned in a "so called" Secular India.



The other thing ... The "standard of Living" is not the only point.

We also have to go to the "fact" of how poor a country is.

India has so far 41.01% world's poor, while
Pakistan has only 3.86% of the World's poor.

Even if the Ruling Elite & Middle Class of India is Richer than Pakistan's equivalent, India still has a huge pool of poor people, compared to Pakistan.

Here's the link:

NationMaster - Poverty > Share of all poor people (most recent) by country

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Also the "15 churches" figure looks bigger than it is. Those "churches" were nothing more than tiny shacks.

Doesn't mean that you can goahead and burn them...

If its vice versa, then i think indian (hindus) are going to have a riot with christians in coming years.

 

[Vinod2070]

Salaams,

Yes...

Two churches being burned in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is nothing compared to 15 churches being burned in a "so called" Secular India.

I guess you must have your reasons for the "so called" Secular India comment. Anyway India is not secular to prove it to others but because of its innate belief that that is the right approach.

The other thing ... The "standard of Living" is not the only point.

We also have to go to the "fact" of how poor a country is.

India has so far 41.01% world's poor, while
Pakistan has only 3.86% of the World's poor.

Even if the Ruling Elite & Middle Class of India is Richer than Pakistan's equivalent, India still has a huge pool of poor people, compared to Pakistan.

Here's the link:

NationMaster - Poverty > Share of all poor people (most recent) by country

Thanks for sharing the link. But I guess, I have my doubts about this data. What year does it refer to? How does it get the figures? What is the basis?

As I mentioned in my previous posts with facts, prima facie the difference does not seem much between our countries. At least the offical poverty figures are not that different. If someone has a better source, it can be shared and debated but if we are roughly in the same boat, it is no occassion for cheap point scoring. Even otherwise, I personally find it reprehensible.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I guess you must have your reasons for the "so called" Secular India comment. Anyway India is not secular to prove it to others but because of its innate belief that that is the right approach.



Thanks for sharing the link. But I guess, I have my doubts about this data. What year does it refer to? How does it get the figures? What is the basis?

As I mentioned in my previous posts with facts, prima facie the difference does not seem much between our countries. At least the offical poverty figures are not that different. If someone has a better source, it can be shared and debated but if we are roughly in the same boat, it is no occassion for cheap point scoring. Even otherwise, I personally find it reprehensible.

Population in millions -----1,117.7 (2006)

Percent of population living on less than $1 a day ------30.7 (2003)

Percent of population living below the national poverty line---------27.8 (2005)

This report is from ADB.

Link:
http://www.adb.org/Documents/Fact_Sheets/IND.pdf

 

[Vinod2070]

I think we are going in circles with this. So this is my last post on the topic of poverty in this thread.

I will again repeat:

HDI rank is supposed to take care of the living conditions in various countries, ranks both of us very low.

India: 129
Pakistan: 134

Nothing to be proud of for either of us, and nothing to try to score cheap points either.

 

[Mustapha]

Salaams

Vinod2070...

It is absolutely credible... I can't believe I actually have to state it out...

Look at the webpage... It even tells you the source at the bottom...:

SOURCE: Country Responsibilities in Achieving the Millenium Development Goals", April 8 2003, by Janice Poling

Basically it is nearly 4 years old...Not that big of a deal... poverty levels don't change dramatically in 4 years...unless the Inflation rate decreases constantly and the Industrialization was not just a steady growth, but also like a Industrial Revolution in Germany... Which is very doubtful....

Secular means no State religion... as in acknowledging all religions are equal before the government...and all religous groups are allowed to have their foundations and etc. in that country...and any religious group is not allowed to be denounced or banned aganist whatsoever.

However 15 Churches being burned...sounds as if Christianity is being denounced...