What's new

Chinese Satellite Fleet Grows, And Grows

Sinodefence is a british based firm owned and operated by british. It is probably one of the most neutral foreign source out there. If you want to read china bashing articles, I suggest that you go to canwa of indian defence forum. If you want to read exaggeration of chinese capability to support the theory of china threat, you can go read stuff by richard fisher.
Yaogan-2 and cartosat-2 are launched in the same year. after that, we have already launched three more satellite of the same mechanism. and India is still preparing to launch cartosat-3.


we have still not send cartosat 3,and how did that made yaogon better,every satellite is only send according to requirement just like each and evrything in the world,we r not involved in a space race with NASA or ESA to show our capability by again and again sending satellites even if it is of no use

if you suggest cartosat-2 is completely indian with no foreign technology, then why couldn't china launch a satellite of similar capability in the same period of time.

yes,yes,yes from each and every above Chinese post i understood that ur only criteria is that "if India posses something we Chinese must definitely have a much better thing,so no problem even we dont have official source to show it"

after all, neither india nor china hold high ground in optic sensing technology. look at your camera, if it is no japanese, then it is probably german or american.

comeon man,untill now i was try to defend our capability,now i ask u,prove that cartosat 2 uses a foreign sar,i know u will b unable to,and when it become clear to u,gently ask me i will show 100's of sources to u
 
we have still not send cartosat 3,and how did that made yaogon better,every satellite is only send according to requirement just like each and evrything in the world,we r not involved in a space race with NASA or ESA to show our capability by again and again sending satellites even if it is of no use



yes,yes,yes from each and every above Chinese post i understood that ur only criteria is that "if India posses something we Chinese must definitely have a much better thing,so no problem even we dont have official source to show it"



comeon man,untill now i was try to defend our capability,now i ask u,prove that cartosat 2 uses a foreign sar,i know u will b unable to,and when it become clear to u,gently ask me i will show 100's of sources to u

Cartosat 2 does not rely on sar(synthetic aperture radar) it uses a camera which is what makes it optically sensitive.
Let's assume Cartosat is completely made in India, the making of a basic camera relies on lense crafting and photosensor which is heavily affected by manufacturing precision. Chinese manufacturing is not known for their precision, yet at least consumers in the developed nation find Chinese computers and cameras acceptable. Tell me, can I find any indian made camera in place like USA or europe. It is called logic, if India suddenly announce that its missile technology is on par with Russia's, people will not buy as it is illogical.
I cannot prove you wrong with an official source however since sadly the chinese government is very secretive about their military assets.
 
the yaogan series sats specs are unknow, but other sats specs are available to public

fsw-3-5 recoverble sat, 1 m resolution, 2005
Shenzhou 5- camera payload has 1.6 m resolution, 2003
cbers-2b, 2.3 m res, 2006
hj-1c SAR (synthetic aparture radar), 5m res, 2010

Shenzhou 5 ccd
*ttp://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-03zd.html
hj1 series
*ttp://earth.eo.esa.int/workshops/seasar2010/participants/276/pres_276_Huang.pdf
AIR WAR COLLEGE
AIR UNIVERSITY
Steven A. Smith, Lt Col, USAF

*ttp://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc/smith.pdf
fsw3.jpg



the 0.6 m estimation from sinodefence for yaogan is not far off at all if you look at the date launched of those available specs for other satellites. it should be better since yaogan is now number 9 of its series, 4 Optical+4 SAR.

right now, china has 4 SAR in orbit already for military. 1 for civilian use will be launched end of this year and 3 more by 2015.

14403389.jpg
 
Cartosat 2 does not rely on sar(synthetic aperture radar) it uses a camera which is what makes it optically sensitive.
Let's assume Cartosat is completely made in India, the making of a basic camera relies on lense crafting and photosensor which is heavily affected by manufacturing precision. Chinese manufacturing is not known for their precision, yet at least consumers in the developed nation find Chinese computers and cameras acceptable. Tell me, can I find any indian made camera in place like USA or europe. It is called logic, if India suddenly announce that its missile technology is on par with Russia's, people will not buy as it is illogical.
I cannot prove you wrong with an official source however since sadly the chinese government is very secretive about their military assets.

You silly man, what you were talking about are all non-sense.

As someone before had proven that India's missile(Agni II) is far superior than the Chinese missiles, and the missile doesn't have to fly according to the law of physics. So it is the same thing here, India's satellite is much superior than the Chinese one, its capability does not have to base on India's industrial and manufacturing capacity. Obvious someone in India has already mastered Zentradi technology and applied to India's space program. Those things do not have to work with you silly human logic here.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/64459-indian-chinese-hypersonic-missiles-post988057.html#post988057
 
Cartosat 2 does not rely on sar(synthetic aperture radar) it uses a camera which is what makes it optically sensitive.
Let's assume Cartosat is completely made in India, the making of a basic camera relies on lense crafting and photosensor which is heavily affected by manufacturing precision. Chinese manufacturing is not known for their precision, yet at least consumers in the developed nation find Chinese computers and cameras acceptable. Tell me, can I find any indian made camera in place like USA or europe. It is called logic, if India suddenly announce that its missile technology is on par with Russia's, people will not buy as it is illogical.
I cannot prove you wrong with an official source however since sadly the chinese government is very secretive about their military assets.

off topic. and very vague. You know china is the base for manufacturing cheap porducts. Now CHina is also making very cheap toys. Now many countries dont make them. Doesnt mean they cant make such toys.( Its just doesnt make sense, to give such logic that chinese cameras are acceptable in US.)

So secretive means Super tech..!! when you urself admit that the chinese manufacturing is not know for precision. It itself closes the argument in this thread i will say.
 
off topic. and very vague. You know china is the base for manufacturing cheap porducts. Now CHina is also making very cheap toys. Now many countries dont make them. Doesnt mean they cant make such toys.( Its just doesnt make sense, to give such logic that chinese cameras are acceptable in US.)

So secretive means Super tech..!! when you urself admit that the chinese manufacturing is not know for precision. It itself closes the argument in this thread i will say.

Actually China and Taiwan have practically a monopoly on 5-axis tools, which are used for precision machining

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

By Richard A. McCormack
richard@manufacturingnews.com

U.S. producers of some of the most technologically advanced machine tools are in trouble, according to an assessment by the Department of Commerce. Sales of high-precision five-axis machine tools are declining. U.S. share of global exports is in a freefall. Foreign companies in China and Taiwan have caught up with U.S. technical capabilities, rendering stringent U.S. export controls moot. U.S. companies are being purchased by foreign rivals. A lack of training programs has created a shortage of skilled workers able to use the complex machinery. Commercial and U.S. government customers prefer foreign machine tools. Export controls are hampering foreign sales. The entire U.S. machine tool industry spends only $1 million a year on research on five-axis machine tools.

These are some of the findings from a "Critical Technology Assessment" conducted by the Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security.

U.S. producers of five-axis machine tools had sales of $253 million in 2008, down 11 percent from 2005 sales of $284 million. That was before the U.S. machine tool industry suffered a meltdown in 2009, when domestic consumption tumbled by 60.4 percent, according to the Association of Manufacturing Technology.

Sales of five-axis machines to domestic customers from U.S. producers declined by 19 percent from 2005 to 2008, from $242 million in 2005 to only $195 million in 2008. There are six American companies dedicated to producing five-axis machine tools, and at least 20 in China. Five-axis tools are used for the production of precision components in the aerospace industry, in making gas and diesel engines, automobile parts, and throughout the medical, textile, oil, glass, heavy industrial equipment and tool industries. "Many other industries are discovering the advantages of these machines," says the Bureau of Industry and Security (BIS).

Yet "only a handful of U.S. producers actually manufacture five-axis machine tools in high volume and most generate less than 10 percent of their annual net finished machine tools sales from five-axis machine tool business lines," according to the market and technology research report from BIS.

U.S. producers of five-axis machine tools exported only $58 million worth of equipment in 2008. In a tally of global exports of all machine tools, the United States -- with exports of $740 million -- accounted for only 4.3 percent of global exports in 2007.

In its survey of 61 American end-users that purchased 502 five-axis machine tools worth a combined $900 million, imports accounted for 70 percent of purchases. "Across model types, the number of imported models greatly surpasses the number of domestic models for grinders, mill/turns [and] machining centers," says BIS. "However, domestic-produced mills slightly outnumbered imported mills." The average purchase price for a five-axis machine tool was $330,000.

BIS also surveyed 109 U.S. machine tool distributors. It found that 80 percent of the five-axis machine tools they sold in the United States between 2005 and 2008 were imported, with Japanese and German machines making up the majority of models. "Five-axis machine tool distributors, most of which are selling only non-U.S. five-axis machine tool models, have clearly positioned themselves more effectively in the domestic market," says BIS. "The growth rate of distributor domestic five-axis simultaneous control machine tool sales in 2005-2008 was 3 percent," says the study. "This compares to a precipitous decline of 20 percent in domestic sales among U.S. producers over the same 2005-2008 period."

There are not many U.S. producers of five-axis machine tools. Only six of the 109 U.S. machine tool companies surveyed devote 25 percent or more of their current production capacity to these high-end machines. The remaining producers of machine tools have either shifted production to other machine tool lines, or have moved production offshore. Other producers say U.S. export restrictions have forced them out of the business.

Companies making five-axis machine tools in the United States take a lot longer to build them than foreign rivals. BIS gathered information on 477 five-axis models, 96 of which were produced in the United States and 381 of which were imported. "BIS found that U.S. producers take almost twice as long as foreign producers to manufacture custom-built models, on average," says the study. "However, U.S. producers were able to manufacture standard models 25 percent faster than their foreign competitors."

Custom-built American models contain 84 percent U.S. content (with eight models reporting 100 percent U.S. content). "In contrast, 87 percent of reported imported machine tool models contained an average level of only 3 percent U.S. content," says the study.

BIS asked end users to assess U.S. and non-U.S. producers on 21 purchasing factors, including such things as spindle speed, machine durability and precision and repeatability. "The United States has a competitive advantage in only one -- service/support," says BIS. "These findings are consistent with U.S. customers' high demand for non-U.S. produced five-axis simultaneous control machine tools. A majority of purchasers do not have any domestic produced machine tools of this type in their capital stock. Several end-users claimed that they were not aware of any domestic producers capable of meeting their purchase needs. One commercial end-user responded in the survey that, 'The overall precision, accuracy, machine tool features and control capability is not available in the United States with reasonable delivery or cost."

BIS found that half of the commercial five-axis machine tools are purchased for government contracts. The majority of these purchases are used solely for the purpose of government work. "Non-U.S. produced models made up 64 percent of five-axis simultaneous control machine tool models in the inventory of U.S. government contractors," says BIS.

BIS also assessed foreign producers of five-axis machines. It found that not one of the 45 companies that are indigenous to Brazil, China, India, Russia and Taiwan use U.S. technology, parts, components or materials. China has 20 indigenous five-axis machine tool companies; Taiwan has 22. None of these companies have to deal with the types of export restrictions facing American firms. As a result, these companies are able to produce all the machine tools that are in demand in China and Taiwan, plus they are "able to produce in sufficient quantity to export to other LRCs," says BIS.

One of China's five-axis machine tool makers has 24 distinct models. China now has 28 companies capable of building more than 1,000 CNC machine tools. There are 130 Chinese companies with annual capacity of more than 100 machine tools. The country is now supplying most all of its own demand, with only 10 percent of the market being supplied through imports. "In 2005, approximately 59,600 units of CNC machine tools were produced in China," according to the BIS report. In 2007, the combined amount of CNC metal-cutting and forming tools produced in China was 126,268, more than double the amount produced in 2005. China is now supplying its own demand for five-axis machine tools used throughout its military.

The BIS quotes the Export Compliance Working Group of the American Chamber of Commerce in the People's Republic of China as saying: "Given the existing domestic and joint venture development and the foreign availability of high-level machine tools, U.S. companies could not make a material contribution to China's military development. China's military demands are already satisfied by domestic and foreign supply."

The United States exported 515 five-axis machine tools between 2005-2007, and only 12 of these went to China. DMTG, China's largest producer of machine tools, exports products to more than 100 countries.

The Bureau of Industry and Security is in charge of licensing the sale of five-axis machine tools for export. From 2004 to 2007, it issued licenses for the sale of 148 machines, but only 34 of them were sold and delivered. BIS asked the U.S. producers and distributors who applied for the export licenses why so few of the orders were fulfilled. "Many respondents indicated that the customer cancelled the sale after the export license was obtained or bought a competitor's product," says BIS. "One Chinese customer cancelled a sale because it took the U.S. company seven months to obtain an export license, and in the end, the license conditions were too extreme in the customer's view."

The number of licenses issued for export of five-axis machine tools to China dropped from nine in 2006 to only three in 2007. "As one exporter noted, 'the costs associated with the uncertainty of obtaining a license [and] the protracted process and impact on customer relations offset the financial rewards of pursuing the [five-axis] business.' "

The few remaining U.S. producers all said that export controls are impacting their ability to remain competitive globally. Foreign customers can obtain the comparable systems much faster from European and Japanese companies. European and Japanese governments process export licenses twice as fast as U.S. export control agencies. One U.S. five-axis machine tool producer told the BIS analysts: "Foreign entities with knowledge of the multi-axis simultaneous control machine tool industry view the U.S. export control policies and requirements as an additional burden to consider when dealing with U.S. multi-axis machine tool manufactures." As a result, they no longer even consider U.S. producers when shopping for five-axis machine tools.
 
Actually China and Taiwan have practically a monopoly on 5-axis tools, which are used for precision machining

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

By Richard A. McCormack

Don't bother, trolls are impervious to logic.

Never mind that American retailers demand and order Chinese companies make "cheap toys" (aka almost all retail goods) and that Chinese high end manufacturing growth is significant.

Never mind all that
 
chinese need to catch up in this field. it will be better if they learn to appreciate others acheivements and try to emulate them, rather then trying to wish away that they dont need to. They have done well but surely India is ahead.

from a link originally posted by XiNiX.

"India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution. "
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | India's spy satellite boost

and the latest Cartosat has .8 meter resolution.

"second only to Digital Globe's Quickbird, which offers an incredibly close 60-70 centimetre resolution"
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/space/satellites/20100107_cartosat-2b.html


but still this comparison is useless as both have sufficient advanced satellite technologies.
 
Last edited:
chinese need to catch up in this field. it will be better if they learn to appreciate others acheivements and try to emulate them, rather then trying to wish away that they dont need to. They have done well but surely India is ahead.

from a link originally posted by XiNiX.

"India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution. "
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | India's spy satellite boost

and the latest Cartosat has .8 meter resolution.

"second only to Digital Globe's Quickbird, which offers an incredibly close 60-70 centimetre resolution"
domain-b.com : ISRO to launch Cartosat-2B in March


but still this comparison is useless as both have sufficient advanced satellite technologies.
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | India's spy satellite boost
India's spy satellite boost
Tuesday, 27 November, 2001, 17:35 GMT
By the BBC's Habib Beary in Bangalore
India's Technology Experiment Satellite (TES), which can be used as a spy satellite, has been beaming down what space officials call "excellent pictures".

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), based in this southern Indian city, is keeping the pictures under wraps for strategic reasons.

"We have not got approval of the government to release the pictures yet", ISRO officials say.

India is in possession of images of the war in Afghanistan, official sources maintain.

TES, launched in October from the Sriharikota launch pad on the east coast, is a precursor for the launch of fully operational spy satellites.

The first high-resolution pictures from its one-metre camera were taken over the temple town of Puri in Orissa on the east coast.



Indian space programme should help its security concerns

"The pictures beamed by TES of the temples are fantastic!" enthuse ISRO officials.

The temple images were shown to Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee last week, and he was delighted to see them.

With TES in position, defence officials say India can pick up images even of a truck moving along the border area of Pakistan.

India has fought three wars with Pakistan, two of them over the disputed territory of Kashmir.

Technical wizardry

TES can detect objects three-foot long or more.

India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution.

TES can be used for the mapping industry and geographical information services, officials said.

Apart from US military satellites, Ikonos, a private space company in the US, has a satellite that beams high resolution images.

India has emerged as a key player in the $1bn market for satellite images, jockeying with two well-established names, Spot of France and Landsat of US.

Antrix Corporation, the corporate arm of ISRO, sold images worth $7m in the global market last year.

The images beamed by five remote sensing satellites excluding TES are being received and marketed from nine international ground stations across the world.

With the success of TES, the ISRO Satellite Centre in Bangalore will embark on manufacturing operational remote sensing satellites that can double as spy satellites.

ISRO says its programmes are civilian-related, and denies building spy satellites.

But as ISRO Chairman Dr.K.Kasturirangan said after launching TES, "It will be for civilian use consistent with our security concerns".

The 1,008kg satellite was launched from a Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV).

The 44-metre PSLV rocket hurled into polar orbit TES and two tiny satellites, one from European Space Agency and the other from Germany.

These two satellites rode piggyback on the Indian satellite.


1.this news is posted in 2001,10 years ago
2."India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution",here "offer""sold images worth $7m in the global market last year",means that India is the second country can provide images to civil customs(as today's google earth),not said the images for military,the US military spy satellite can distinguish the newspaper headline in the ground in 1991,the accuracy is cm but metre;and for Pla millitary spy satellites,its weight is about 3 tons,can scan 5m under ground,with radars and optical equipments not with only one camera to make photos
~~
 
Last edited:
1.this news is posted in 2001,10 years ago
2."India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution",here "offer""sold images worth $7m in the global market last year",means that India is the second country can provide images to civil customs(as today's google earth),not said the images for military,the US military spy satellite can distinguish the newspaper headline in the ground in 1991,the accuracy is cm but metre;and for Pla millitary spy satellites,its weight is about 3 tons,can scan 5m under ground,with radars and optical equipments not with only one camera to make photos
~~

I'm certain that India's military satellite has much better capability that what India sells commercially. Would the Indian government let anyone knows its capability? I do not understand why many Indian members brag about the capability of what India sells to public. Its totally irrelevant to its military capability.
 
Cartosat 2 does not rely on sar(synthetic aperture radar) it uses a camera which is what makes it optically sensitive.
Let's assume Cartosat is completely made in India, the making of a basic camera relies on lense crafting and photosensor which is heavily affected by manufacturing precision. Chinese manufacturing is not known for their precision, yet at least consumers in the developed nation find Chinese computers and cameras acceptable. Tell me, can I find any indian made camera in place like USA or europe. It is called logic, if India suddenly announce that its missile technology is on par with Russia's, people will not buy as it is illogical.
I cannot prove you wrong with an official source however since sadly the chinese government is very secretive about their military assets.

again and again u point the same,India claiming 2 is illogical,but u have no official data to prove it neither do u have any official source to prove Chinese satellite resolution better than India,and about Chinese secretive policies,it always does not require to b a communist nation to keep matters secret even democracies do that,so ur point is not valid here,and i dont know how much time i reiterated the above lines

You silly man, what you were talking about are all non-sense.

As someone before had proven that India's missile(Agni II) is far superior than the Chinese missiles, and the missile doesn't have to fly according to the law of physics. So it is the same thing here, India's satellite is much superior than the Chinese one, its capability does not have to base on India's industrial and manufacturing capacity. Obvious someone in India has already mastered Zentradi technology and applied to India's space program. Those things do not have to work with you silly human logic here.

again a troll unable to cope up with the frustration of not able to prove how actually Chinese resolution is better than Indian,since u have no source to back,please continue ur off topic trolling



1.this news is posted in 2001,10 years ago
2."India is the second country in the world after the USA that can offer images with one-metre resolution",here "offer""sold images worth $7m in the global market last year",means that India is the second country can provide images to civil customs(as today's google earth),not said the images for military,the US military spy satellite can distinguish the newspaper headline in the ground in 1991,the accuracy is cm but metre;and for Pla millitary spy satellites,its weight is about 3 tons,can scan 5m under ground,with radars and optical equipments not with only one camera to make photos~~

so if the news is even 10 yrs old,were actually does it makes difference,since even after 10 yrs u still have not published a similar capability

why do u think that we will provide images for military customers

i dont want to comment about U.S satellite but if u carefully read about Indian satellite actually .6 meter implies 60 cm:cheesy:
 
There we go again, arguing ad nauseam. It is highly doubtful that any of us is privy to classified information on spy satellites. Lets' all chill out. Shall we?
 
again and again u point the same,India claiming 2 is illogical,but u have no official data to prove it neither do u have any official source to prove Chinese satellite resolution better than India,and about Chinese secretive policies,it always does not require to b a communist nation to keep matters secret even democracies do that,so ur point is not valid here,and i dont know how much time i reiterated the above lines



again a troll unable to cope up with the frustration of not able to prove how actually Chinese resolution is better than Indian,since u have no source to back,please continue ur off topic trolling





so if the news is even 10 yrs old,were actually does it makes difference,since even after 10 yrs u still have not published a similar capability

why do u think that we will provide images for military customers

i dont want to comment about U.S satellite but if u carefully read about Indian satellite actually .6 meter implies 60 cm:cheesy:

Just let you know how ridiculous to claim that India's Cartosat with 0.8 meter resolution is the second best to US's spy satellite.

KH-11 series satellites which first launched in 1976 has a theoretical ground resolution with no atmospheric degradation and would be roughly 15 cm (6 inches). With 40% functionality left after atmospheric degradation, it would still have an operational ground resolution of 60cm. Modern U.S. IMINT satellites such as KH-12, KH-13 series are believed to have around 10cm operational ground resolution. German SAR-Lupe reconnaissance satellite system has 50cm to 100cm resolution depends on its operation modes. The list could go on and on.
SAR-Lupe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
KH-11 KENNAN - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There are also many other US military SAR spy satellites such as Lacrosse and Onyx series, and USSR/Russian spy satellites that have no information on its technical specifications. Now are you going to claim that since there are no sources to confirm their resolution because of their military natures, Cartosat is better than those.

India is still buying images worth about Rupees 2 crore a year from Ikonos currently, even though with Cartosat-2 offers 20 times lower price for around the same resolution per square meter of imagery. Because Cartosat-2's 80cm resolution is in black and white while IKONOS offers 80 cm resolution with multispectral.
So yes, India's Cartosat is definitely the second best recon satellite there is.:rofl:


That has been said, now let's get back the Chinese one. Here is a news article in Chinese citing from Sankei Shimbun which is one of the largest newspaper in Japan. It said that China's SAR equipped surveillance satellites had already achieved 75cm resolutions. Here if Brotherhood could help to find that article from Sankei Shimbun in Japanese, it will be really appreciated.
ÖйúÒ£¸ÐÎÀÐǾ«¶ÈÏÅ»µÈÕ±¾(תÔØ)_¹ú¼Ê¹Û²ì_ÌìÑÄÉçÇø
again a troll unable to cope up with the frustration of not able to prove how actually Chinese resolution is better than Indian,since u have no source to back,please continue ur off topic trolling

There is no reason for me to be frustrated at all. Let's say I accept that Cartosat is better than China's spy satellites, then my question will be how would India achieve that with its industrial and engineering capability? Questions of
"1.Does India has better industrial infrastructure related to space program such as electronics, optics and etc than China?

2.Does India has better science and engineering research facilities such as those fields mentioned above related to space program than China?

3.Does India has more experiences in space program than China?

4.Does India has people like Qian Xuesen to help India's space program and establish not only necessary hard infrastructure but also soft as human infrastructure (talents). Qian also invented Engineering cybernetics which is critical in many engineering fields besides aerospace. Here I am not saying that Dr. Vikram Sarabhai was not an excellent expert in space engineering, but his achievements could not match what Qian Xuesen had.

5.Does India has a more efficient and dedicated government that can locate resources towards space program better than China?

6.Does India has a bigger government budget that can dedicate more fundings towards space program than China?"


still need to be answered. That would be my frustration if I choose to believe as such.
 
Last edited:
No logic works for trolls as they will troll the thread by all means.

When the time comes, the most appropriate answer to trolls is not extensive analysis but 2 slams in their faces.


Slumdogs: suck that! :lol:
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom