Chinese Researcher in the West Thread

[Shotgunner51]

That mostly applies to teaching positions..

While in the field of basic science like Theoretical Physics，many top scientists usually care more about their work and less about money，they tend to value academic atmosphere more and likely to stay since the US is still in the league of its own in this regard. The salary China can pay doesn‘t matter that much

But in the field of applied science, when the reserchers wish to commercialize their ideas，they go where the market is.. In this case China is no less attractive than the US. Chinese companies are also more willing to give stock bonus to these high value returners and often make them millionaires. Again salary doesn‘t matter much.

I think China is doing just fine without giving much incentives on the policy level，the sheer economy size is a big enough incentive and attraction for the talents we need，not to say the Theoretical Physics is less important but China as a country playing catching up should know its priorities

Excellent analysis!

I think the 'return pull' is directly related to two variables. First the actaul financial/salary aspect and the second quality of life. The first is simple the second is lot more complicated. But for sure between these two variables pivots the destination of talent.

You are right, as @utp45 has said there are many motives, hence it is a lot more complicated. On top of short-term cash rewards, quality of life may include an open academic atmosphere, high job satisfaction, protected intellectual rights, job security, visible career path, and ease of doing business etc.

For example:

If you are a mainland Chinese scientist in US, have developed a tech and wants to monetize it, what's best path for you? You do have many options, one very likely is to file a patent in US for your IP protection, work with an existing US corp through your ex-colleagues/schoolmates, or you get money from a local USD denominated fund and startup a new corp. If China or another country is a huge market or supply chain, then you might go there and find a co-operation partner. As your business get bigger, you start to restructure your company internationally for tax planning, cross-border capital flow and talent/idea flow. In the end, these techs/inventions, these businesses, are considered "Made in USA".​

"How fast" can China reduce brain drain, or even drain US? I don't know, hopefully soon! So "What are needed" for this to happen? My advices:

• The Education Department back out from micro management of tertiary education and focus on compulsory education, budget allocation, legislation support, supervision.

• Deepen legal reform on IP protection related agenda, from legislation, supervision to jurisdiction.

• Refine legislation to support growth of domestic PE, VC funds, and public market (i.e. Shanghai/Shenzhen Stock Exchange). Let capital play a more instrumental role in supporting tech development.

• Refine legislation on startup capital, licensing, valuation of intangible assets (e.g. IP), tax, cross-border capital flow. Less red tape, more efficient flow of business essentials.

• Refine legislation of censorship including internet, trade of tech services/ideas.

• Review immigration policy to address the concerns of scientists of Chinese or other ethnicites, and their family.

The good news is that some of the above are already happening, hence it's optimistic that more and more Chinese scientists will choose to return since China is fast growing and full of opportunities.

 

[dusjanbe]

lol I would imagine less than 20 years from now China will start brain drain the US

The U.S have 6 billion to choose from, China only have China 1.4 billion for now
China will still have to compete against the EU which will drain from the pool too

Excellent analysis!
The good news is that some of the above are already happening, hence it's optimistic that more and more Chinese scientists will choose to return since China is fast growing and full of opportunities.

China can stop the drain from Chinese scientist but i doubt they will attracting more, i've talked to some Swedish expat that have lived China, basically the salary and the legal quagmire is one thing, but the other things such as languge/cultural barrier, pullution, food safety concern, "never in a million year" putting their child into the Chinese education system.

 

[Shotgunner51]

The U.S have 6 billion to choose from, China only have China 1.4 billion for now
China will still have to compete against the EU which will drain from the pool too

Yes as I have said US has a global uniqueness in attracting talents from all over the world, and that's why I doubt there is anything in the short run going to change the situation. Moreover, not just talents will go to US, the effect of a fast changing demography in US is still to be observed. The more pragmatic way in the short run is to study how to reduce brain drain for most countries, there are successful examples, and good reference cases.

China can stop the drain from Chinese scientist but i doubt they will attracting more, i've talked to some Swedish expat that have lived China, basically the salary and the legal quagmire is one thing, but the other things such as languge/cultural barrier, pullution, food safety concern, "never in a million year" putting their child into the Chinese education system.

China can stop the drain or not, depends on whether the appropriate action items (could be the ones I have suggested above) are implemented. The agenda of attracting more than drain (i.e. not just reduce, but reverse) isn't a practical agenda given the more pressing one is reducing drain. Fundamentally speaking, even if achievable, since contemporary China resembles more like an enclosed society rather than a melting pot like in Han, Tang Dynasty, or today's US, therefore the idea of a demographic change is disadvantageous to the society. As international trade continue to rise, culturally-different foreign talents/scientists have and will continue to reside/work in China on temporary terms with separated living circles like their kids in international schools, residential aggregates, banks/med/insurance plans from origin countries etc. This is not going to change in the future.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Yes as I have said US has a global uniqueness in attracting talents from all over the world, and that's why I doubt there is anything in the short run going to change the situation. Moreover, not just talents will go to US, the effect of a fast changing demography in US is still to be observed. The more pragmatic way in the short run is to study how to reduce brain drain for most countries, there are successful examples, and good reference cases.



China can stop the drain or not, depends on whether the appropriate action items (could be the ones I have suggested above) are implemented. The agenda of attracting more than drain (i.e. not just reduce, but reverse) isn't a practical agenda given the more pressing one is reducing drain. Fundamentally speaking, even if achievable, since contemporary China resembles more like an enclosed society rather than a melting pot like in Han, Tang Dynasty, or today's US, therefore the idea of a demographic change is disadvantageous to the society. As international trade continue to rise, culturally-different foreign talents/scientists have and will continue to reside/work in China on temporary terms with separated living circles like their kids in international schools, residential aggregates, banks/med/insurance plans from origin countries etc. This is not going to change in the future.

The problem with attracting people only on the basis of jobs is that many people have their own preferences based on their quality of life, and social participation.

For example, if a Caucasian is not able to become Chinese properly, and his children will always suffer from being viewed as outsiders, and he has to live in segregation, He will have low priority to settle in China. He may work temporarily, but not settle.

China will have to revive its melting pot characteristic of Han and Tang Dynasties to really have a chance at the front runner.

No body can be a cultural, economic hegemon, if it doesn't give a way for outsiders to become insiders and live there. This has been true for all great civilizations. All have been inclusive, and their identity based on abstract notions of culture, ideals, or values, rather than limited by blood.

The only difference is that in the yester years it was not possible for China to be in any significant contact with places like say Persia, or Europe, or even India (Due to Himalayan and Tibetan barriers). So, all people happened to be Mongoloids.

 

[Jlaw]

If you are a mainland Chinese scientist in US, have developed a tech and wants to monetize it, what's best path for you?

As a scientist you are most likely working for a corporation, school or government. Any tech or new discovery you find belongs to your employer. You will not be able to patent it and develop it independently.

Your discovery belongs to your employer.

 

[Shotgunner51]

The problem with attracting people only on the basis of jobs is that many people have their own preferences based on their quality of life, and social participation.

For example, if a Caucasian is not able to become Chinese properly, and his children will always suffer from being viewed as outsiders, and he has to live in segregation, He will have low priority to settle in China. He may work temporarily, but not settle.

China will have to revive its melting pot characteristic of Han and Tang Dynasties to really have a chance at the front runner.

No body can be a cultural, economic hegemon, if it doesn't give a way for outsiders to become insiders and live there. This has been true for all great civilizations. All have been inclusive, and their identity based on abstract notions of culture, ideals, or values, rather than limited by blood.

The only difference is that in the yester years it was not possible for China to be in any significant contact with places like say Persia, or Europe, or even India (Due to Himalayan and Tibetan barriers). So, all people happened to be Mongoloids.

Rather than talking about means, seems like we are discussing objective now aren't we? Alright then let me explain my view. It isn't about front runner, or cultural/economic hegemon, these are empty rhetoric for journalists, not solid benefits down to each individual citizens. China need more developments now, per capita tech/industrial still lag behind leaders like Japan/SK/Germany, hence cutting brain drain is one favorable tool to allow more scientists/talents to return, which ultimately boost domestic economy. Actionable items? Refer to my previous post (#31).

As I have discussed with you on another thread about decreasing population, China has 56 ethnic groups (and not all Mongoloids) of 1.3 billion people scattered over 10 million sqm under 5 different political structures, of which the mainstream culture is Han/Confucian. It's a delicate balance already, so despite the overall population size is decreasing China should not adopt any immigration policy which might distort the balance.

Resume like Han/Tang Dynasty in the long run? I don't know, seems not practical as least in the coming decades. The more pressing issue is like I said above, cutting brain drain,

 

[j20blackdragon]

The vast majority of basic research at universities is funded by the US government. So when the US government becomes a large version of Greece and the US dollar collapses, the brain drain will stop.

 

[Jlaw]

The vast majority of basic research at universities is funded by the US government. So when the US government becomes a large version of Greece and the US dollar collapses, the brain drain will stop.

But realistically do you really see the dollar collapsing with the world's number one military?

 

[j20blackdragon]

But realistically do you really see the dollar collapsing with the world's number one military?

The dollar has artificial strength because East Asian nations build up massive foreign-exchange reserves while exporting vast amounts of high tech goods to the US and rest of the world. The other main support comes from OPEC with the petrodollar.

When these two pillars of support go, the dollar will also go.

The US military is overrated. Currently the US military can't even stop ISIS in Iraq. You think the rest of the world can't see this?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

If you are a mainland Chinese scientist in US, have developed a tech and wants to monetize it, what's best path for you?​

Real answer: none of the above. All your IP belongs to the university/corporation/your employer. It absolutely does not belong to you. You may be rewarded at the discretion of your employer ranging from a share of the profit if it is licensed, to a "good job!" and nothing else. This was told to me on day 3 of orientation.

Why do you think professors are described as "discovering" something? To be strict, their graduate students, postdocs and staff scientists discover things, they don't. They barely even walk into most labs. But they got the funding, so they are responsible for the IP - as in, they own the IP and nobody else.

 

[somsak]

I know these guys lol. They're crowd followers. They pick very conservative topics to start out, then once they are established (and don't have to do any work personally) they send a horde of graduate students to work on trendy buzzword projects. If the students fail? Fk their shit, they're just pawns. I'm in the field lol. These guys early resumes don't impress me. Their later achievements are indeed great though.

Pan is enough, IMO. Pan is the Chinese equivalent of Einstein, that's how high I would rate his intelligence. I myself am a physicist (in semiconductor materials though, not quantum optics) and I fully understand how insanely difficult Pan's work is and how groundbreaking it is. It literally is being used as the first quantum cryptography network EVER built and 100x more useful than whatever nanowire Yang Peidong (that's the guy's name, btw. UC Berkeley prof) had a poor, overworked postdoc synthesize.



lol and they take 10 years to get tenure while working 60 hours weeks for it, minimum, while living in a small rural town in the middle of nowhere surrounded by white ppl. Back in the day, Chinese didn't care because so many had self hate syndrome and didn't mind not being Chinese anymore, but today, Chinese do care. How many are willing to spend the rest of their lives living as 2nd class citizens, in a small rural town? The Chinese who want to immigrate want to live in Los Angeles or NYC to become upper class, surrounded by other super rich Chinese ppl. Straight from the mouth of a classmate in CS here.

How about you? Why do u choose to stay in US as researcher instead of going home?

 

[zeronet]

How about you? Why do u choose to stay in US as researcher instead of going home?

it is quite simple, cuz ur 401k is here, ur health insurance, ur house, ur kids education.....life is easy in america.....unless there r huge tons of gold just for u only to grab in other place, u'd better stay where u r right now.

 

[Azizam]

Rather than talking about means, seems like we are discussing objective now aren't we? Alright then let me explain my view. It isn't about front runner, or cultural/economic hegemon, these are empty rhetoric for journalists, not solid benefits down to each individual citizens. China need more developments now, per capita tech/industrial still lag behind leaders like Japan/SK/Germany, hence cutting brain drain is one favorable tool to allow more scientists/talents to return, which ultimately boost domestic economy. Actionable items? Refer to my previous post (#31).

As I have discussed with you on another thread about decreasing population, China has 56 ethnic groups (and not all Mongoloids) of 1.3 billion people scattered over 10 million sqm under 5 different political structures, of which the mainstream culture is Han/Confucian. It's a delicate balance already, so despite the overall population size is decreasing China should not adopt any immigration policy which might distort the balance.

Resume like Han/Tang Dynasty in the long run? I don't know, seems not practical as least in the coming decades. The more pressing issue is like I said above, cutting brain drain,

How about getting Chinese in SE Asia into China? They are quite successful and wealthy but they increasingly find themselves being persecuted.

 

[Shotgunner51]

How about getting Chinese in SE Asia into China? They are quite successful and wealthy but they increasingly find themselves being persecuted.

Well that's a good point bro. By now PRC has no immigration policy for any foreign nationals.

IMO as I have said to @Bussard Ramjet in another thread and briefly mentioned in post #31, PRC should consider accepting new taxpaying citizens of which ethnicity belongs to anyone of the currently 56 already present inside the country (and with other reasonable restraints e.g. talents, no criminal records), however for the sake of political correctness it would be inappropriate to openly make such legislation immediately.

Another technical issue in the agenda of immigration is double nationality (Dual/Multiple Citizenship), which is not recognized by PRC as per current policy. It might be worthwhile to review such policy so that new citizens have an option to retain another citizenship, and work/live/study in another country for convenience.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

How about you? Why do u choose to stay in US as researcher instead of going home?

I'm not a researcher. I'm a PHD student. big difference. You can call me out on hypocrisy if I'm 35 years old and established, but you can't lol. Nice try lol. Now the real question: what is Thailand doing about its uh, "tourism" industry?

it is quite simple, cuz ur 401k is here, ur health insurance, ur house, ur kids education.....life is easy in america.....unless there r huge tons of gold just for u only to grab in other place, u'd better stay where u r right now.

if you have been through the US education system and sat in a high school classroom, you wouldn't mention the kids education part.

IMO as I have said to @Bussard Ramjet in another thread and briefly mentioned in post #31, PRC should consider accepting new taxpaying citizens of which ethnicity belongs to anyone of the currently 56 already present inside the country (and with other reasonable restraints e.g. talents, no criminal records), however for the sake of political correctness it would be inappropriate to openly make such legislation immediately.

Another technical issue in the agenda of immigration is double nationality (Dual/Multiple Citizenship), which is not recognized by PRC as per current policy. It might be worthwhile to review such policy so that new citizens have an option to retain another citizenship, and work/live/study in another country for convenience.

I actually agree with both suggestions.