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Chinese nuclear modernization: Smaller and later

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New FAS article about Chinese nukes.
Last week’s threat assessment by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) repeats the assessment from last year that China currently has “fewer than 50 ICBMs that can strike the United States, but that it probably will more than double that number by 2025.” The expected increase refers to the addition of the DF-31A, a single-warhead mobile ICBM that was first deployed in 2007 after more than two decades of development.

Full article here.
Chinese Nuclear Modernization: Smaller and Later » FAS Strategic Security Blog
 
Please no more BS from Kristensen.

Similarly, an article in The Washington Free Beacon warns that the deepest cut being considered “would leave Pentagon with fewer warheads than China.” Not so. The 300-400 option is for deployed strategic warheads, not the total arsenal. China’s total arsenal includes about 240 warheads, none of which are deployed.

lol, according to him, we have zero nuke being deployed, who will take this guy's statement seriously? :coffee:
 
FAS and Kristensen are still living in 1975. This is 2012. China has been busy during the last 40 years. According to my count, China has 1,924 deployed thermonuclear warheads.

China has a minimum of 1,924 thermonuclear warheads. Here's why.

Let's see whether my minimum estimate of 1,924 Chinese thermonuclear warheads makes sense.

1. From the DF-31As alone, there should be 144 ICBM thermonuclear warheads. The DF-31A was deployed in 2007. Add 12 new DF-31As for each subsequent year. Now multiply 48 ICBMs by 3 MIRVs for each missile.

AzKcQ.jpg

China showed us 12 DF-31A TELs at the 2009 Chinese military parade.

We know China launches satellites on 15 to 20 Long March/DF-31A rockets each year. Britain`s International Institute of Strategic Studies' claim that China is adding a brigade or 12 DF-31As to its arsenal each year looks reasonable. Since China manufactures 15 to 20 Long March rockets each year, China can easily produce 12 DF-31A missiles each year.

2. From the DF-5s, there are another 20 ICBMs with 4 to 5 megatons each. Richard Fisher has reported on the deployment of a DF-5B with 5 or 6 MIRVs. We do not know whether the DF-5B is a new missile or a retrofitted and upgraded DF-5.

Since we're trying to make a reasonable minimum estimate, we will just assume the DF-5Bs are upgrades of the existing DF-5s. The sum of 20 upgraded DF-5s is 100 warheads.

5CQhK.jpg

DF-5 had its first flight in 1971 and has been in service since 1981.

The Pentagon claims China built 20 DF-5s and then just stopped. Essentially, the Pentagon is claiming China never built a single additional DF-5 for 30 years from 1981 to 2011. Who believes that China has been an angel and did not build another DF-5 for thirty years?!

3. There is at least a dozen DF-31, which can reach Alaska, Hawaii, or the northwestern United States. This is another 12 ICBM warheads. Since the DF-31As are reportedly MIRVed, we will assume the DF-31s are also MIRVed with 3 warheads each. The total is 36 DF-31 warheads.

umpUn.jpg

Here, we see nine DF-31s; which were first seen at China's 1999 military parade.

The Pentagon claims China only built 12 DF-31s by 1999 and just stopped. Let me get this straight. China spent billions of dollars to develop its most advanced solid-fueled ICBM by 1999 and only built 12?! Are you going to believe the Pentagon propaganda?

An U.S. general testified in front of Congress that China was at least 10 years away from building a conventional ASAT missile in 2007. That very afternoon, China successfully destroyed a weather satellite with an ASAT weapon. So much for military intelligence at the Pentagon.

4. According to Jane's Defence, the "Chinese are believed to have started the design and development of the Dong Feng-41 (DF-41) in 1986." It's been over 15 years. China has shown us an operational and deployed DF-31A. There is no reason to believe that the DF-41 has not been fully developed and become operational. It's just a longer and slightly wider missile.

The DF-41 could easily vault China into eventual parity with the United States in the total number of warheads. Ten DF-41s result in 100 150-kiloton warheads. One hundred DF-41s would increase China's nuclear arsenal by 1,000 ICBM warheads.

xpy9U.jpg

Since 1986, according to Jane's Defence, China has been developing the DF-41 ICBM (which is capable of carrying 10 MIRVs).

According to GlobalSecurity, "it is anticipated that the DF-41 will be delivered to the 2d Artillery around the year 2010." In other words, the DF-41 has probably already been deployed.

Why should we believe GlobalSecurity? Let's use our common sense. The DF-41 has been in development for over 15 years. It can't stay in development for perpetuity. Given China's previous mastery of the DF-31 and DF-31A, fifteen years should be plenty of time to build a longer-range DF-41.

5. No one knows how many ICBMs China is hiding in its 5,000km Underground Great Wall. I think a sensible person would not claim that China spent ten years building the Underground Great Wall to only place an ICBM every 100km. Similarly, most reasonable people would not claim that China is hiding one ICBM every 1km.

As a rough estimate, a reasonable person would most likely assume that China is hiding one ICBM every 10km. 5,000km / 10km per hidden ICBM = 500 ICBMs hidden in China's Underground Great Wall. Assuming each ICBM is MIRVed with three warheads, I estimate China is hiding 1,500 ICBM warheads in its Underground Great Wall.

u2ybT.jpg

China spent ten years building its "'Underground Great Wall' that stretches for more than 5,000km in the Hebei region of northern China."

The Pentagon currently assigns ZERO ICBMs to China's Underground Great Wall. As best as I can understand, their logic is "well, we can't see it...so we're going to say there are no ICBMs there." Seriously, what kind of military assessment is that? It's just as bad as the Pentagon's ASAT assessment.

CPSlF.jpg

In this photograph, we see two Chinese DF-5 ballistic missiles (with 12,000 to 15,000km range) on military trains being transported in an underground tunnel. The Pentagon claims there are no Chinese ballistic missiles in the 5,000km Underground Great Wall. Do your eyes agree?

The 5,000km underground complex was specifically built for a Chinese thermonuclear counterstrike.

I estimate there are probably 500 ICBMs hidden in the 5,000km facility in Hebei, China. I want to mention that China doesn't need 500 launch silos. A missile can be fired from a silo and another missile can be reloaded in its place. Let's assume China plans to reload five missiles for each silo. This means China would only need 100 silos over a 5,000km distance.

I can assure you the claim of only 20 Chinese ICBM silos is ludicrous. The length of a DF-21 IRBM is 11m. The length of a DF-31 ICBM is 13m. If a silo is dug a little deeper and wider, it can accommodate an ICBM; instead of an IRBM.

In the following video, which encompasses only a few mountains, I counted at least 30 silos. We know from a Chinese-state television CCTV broadcast on March 24, 2008 that China has built a 5,000km (or 3,000-mile) missile complex under a mountain range. If a few mountains contain 30 silos, imagine how many silos are hidden along 5,000km.


6. China has four Type 094 Jin-class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). Each Type 094 SSBN carries 12 JL-2 SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles). Since the Julang-2 is based on DF-31 technology, we will follow Jane Defence's report that the JL-2 is MIRVed with 3 or 4 warheads. Using our standard 3 MIRVs for a DF-31A or JL-2 missile, we arrive at 144 warheads (e.g. 4 Type 094 SSBNs x 12 JL-2s per SSBN x 3 MIRVs per JL-2).

Therefore, China's four Type 094 SSBNs carry a total of 144 JL-2 warheads that can strike portions of the United States.

RFyjn.jpg

Here, we see two Type 094 Jin-class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN). Two more SSBNs for a total of four Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs seem perfectly reasonable.
 
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Meanwhile, Kristensen's statements about JL-2 and SSBN are wrong.

The latest variant of JL-2 can go to a full range beyond 12,000km, since 8,000km isn't strategically enough for the China's deterrence, but it is enough for Russia's.

PS, China's SSBN/SSN can't be noisier than Soviet SSBN/SSN of the 1970s, where did he get that BS idea from?

In 1987, Toshiba has sold its machine tools to Soviet Union, this has helped the Soviets to further improve the noise of their boomers thanks to the advanced machine tools from Japan.

The Russia from the 1980s can't produce the machine tool for the complex propellers of their subs, but today's China can produce the top quality machine tool that is exported to Germany.

MORE TOSHIBA TOOLS SAID TO REACH SOVIET - NYTimes.com


Today, China is the largest producer of the complex machine tools, and our quality is getting quite close to that of Germany and Japan. Our modern machine tools are far superior to that of Soviet Union acquired from Japan in 1987.

China started large-scale CNC machine tools exported to Germany to obtain breakthrough (Figure) « Military of China, force comment.

With such advanced machine tools, how we can still make the noisy boomers?
 
Let me use simple logic.

There were 12 DF-31A's on parade. Each of them carries 3 warheads.

if China only has 50 strategic warheads, then are we TOTAL IDIOTS for putting 72% of our entire arsenal in a tiny street on parade?!

in addition I question his credentials. His education was in biostatistics, not in physics, chemistry, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, geophysics or anything related to nuclear weapons. He also does not hold a PhD, but claims to be a leading scientist.
 
China's relentless thermonuclear modernization: DF-31As replace old DF-4s

China is currently replacing its old liquid-fueled DF-4 IRBMs (7,000km range) with new solid-fueled DF-31A ICBMs (12,000km range). China has at least 35 DF-4 IRBMs, which are now being modernized into 3-MIRVed DF-31A ICBMs.

New ICBM Brigade in Hunan? | Flashpoints

"New ICBM Brigade in Hunan?
By Mark Stokes & L.C. Russell Hsiao
October 12, 2011

syr5U.jpg


An amateur photographer recently posted a video on China’s Youku website capturing a probable Dongfeng-31A (DF-31A) convoy transiting downtown Shaoyang, a prefecture-level city in Hunan Province. The video showed a single DF-31 transporter, erector, launcher (TEL) moving north accompanied by six camouflaged support vehicles and a Public Security escort.

The DF-31(A) TEL may have been on its way to a new Second Artillery brigade headquarters facility located in the far western suburbs of the city. Formerly based in Hunan’s Tongdao County, the 805 Brigade initiated construction of new facilities in Shaoyang in 2008 and completed its relocation last year. Older facilities in Tongdao County were being dismantled in 2010.

The DF-31 and DF-31A are assumed to carry only a single nuclear warhead, which don't appear to be mated with missiles during peacetime. The 55 Base’s 905 Regiment— euphemistically referred to as an Equipment Inspection Regiment—maintains the 55 Base’s inventory of ballistic missiles and a limited number of nuclear warheads in underground facilities. The 55 Base Technical Service Regiment has responsibility for transporting warheads and missile sections from 905 Regiment depot facilities to launch brigades when ordered to do so. The brigade’s technical battalion assembles missile sections and mates them with warheads in underground facilities maintained by the brigade’s site management battalion. The missile is subsequently hoisted and loaded into the brigade’s TELs, which are rolled out to pre-surveyed launch sites. The brigade’s communications battalion is tasked with ensuring the brigade commander and political commissar maintain constant communication links internally within the brigade and externally with upper echelons.

Moving toward DF-31(A)?

The 805 Brigade is said to have previously been equipped with the liquid fueled, two staged DF-4 intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM). With a range of at least 5,500 kilometres, the DF-4 is capable of reaching targets throughout the Asia-Pacific region, including US facilities on Guam. State media reporting indicates that the 805 Brigade began planning for the conversion to a new missile system at least as early as 2007. The conversion reflects a broader trend in the shift from liquid- to solid-fueled missiles that are road/rail-mobile, and capable of being launched more rapidly. A submarine launched variant of the DF-31, the JL-2, is still being flight-tested.

Since integrating the new missile system, the 805 Brigade has implemented an aggressive training programme. In July 2010, the brigade conducted an exercise involving rapid response, mobility, and survivability. During the second week of March 2011, the brigade carried out tactical mobility training involving night time operations under communications jamming conditions. In April this year, another exercise tested the unit’s ability to counter enemy space surveillance assets. The brigade appears to have been involved in acceptance testing in 2009, which likely involved live fire exercises, and formally introduced the new missile variant into its inventory in 2010.

Chinese government publications indicate the possible establishment of a test and evaluation unit under the 54 Base, headquartered in Luoyang, Henan Province. Located within Xinyang City in southeastern Henan, the test and evaluation unit may be introducing a new missile variant into the Second Artillery Force’s operational inventory. The US Defence Department has reported in the Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2011 that China is currently developing a new road-mobile ICBM, possibly capable of carrying a multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV).

So what does the latest sighting suggest? The presence of the DF-31(A) convoy in Shaoyang augments reporting of the 805 Brigade’s conversion to a new missile variant, and appears to confirm the retirement of the DF-4 and initial introduction of the DF-31(A) to Hunan’s 55 Base. Beyond improved survivability, replacement of the DF-4 increases the number of nuclear warheads and delivery vehicles that could be dedicated to a regional scenario, and possibly the United States, in a crisis situation.

According to the Defence Department report, the Second Artillery had approximately 10-15 DF-31 and 10-15 DF-31A missiles in the active inventory. Each brigade is presumably equipped with 12 launchers (six launch battalions, two subordinate companies each, and with each company assigned one launcher). Estimates of China’s ICBM inventory appear to be based upon the assumption of roughly one missile per launcher (or silo). The Shaoyang brigade is likely equipped along similar lines as the first two DF-31 units.

Mark Stokes is the executive director and L.C. Russell Hsiao is a senior research fellow at The Project 2049 Institute.

Image credit: Asia Eye"

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vdKH3.jpg

3-MIRVed DF-31A ICBM is lifted into position for firing.
 
Those western guys are always giving incredibly low estimation for China's stockpile in inventory.

And how we can still have the 8,000km JL-2 still in flight test? We have just finished to test the 12,000km JL-2A back in 2010.

China has upgraded the JL-1 (1,700km) into JL-1A (2,500km or more), it is not hard to understand for JL-2 and JL-2A as i suppose. :coffee:
 
240-400 is an older estimate, 1,000-1,900 is the better pick.

Pentagon disagrees with you, but of course you could have better sources than they have.

So how you know that China has over 1000 nuclear weapons...?
 
Does it really matter if China didn't even have nuclear weapons but developing them? The Westerners always want to persceive the good old "we are the world police and taking care of things" approach" capich?
 
Pentagon disagrees with you, but of course you could have better sources than they have.

So how you know that China has over 1000 nuclear weapons...?

Did you bother reading post #3?

The Pentagon is spreading propaganda. Everyone else with a brain can see for themselves that the Pentagon estimate of 20 DF-5s and 30 combined DF-31s and DF-31As is wrong. (See citation below)

a. DF-5s have been in service since 1981. DF-5Bs are upgraded MIRVed versions. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 20 DF-5s were built and not a single one more since 1981.

b. 9 DF-31 TELs were shown at China's 1999 military parade. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 15 DF-31s were built and not a single one more since 1999.

c. 12 DF-31A TELs were shown at China's 2009 military parade. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 15 DF-31As were built and not a single one more since 2009.

d. According to the Pentagon estimate, there should be no ICBMs at all in China's 5,000km Underground Great Wall. Wait! What about the picture of 2 DF-5s in China's Underground Great Wall? So what? The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. No proof of ICBMs in China's Underground Great Wall and the current estimate is zero.

Alright, who is actually dumb enough to believe the Pentagon estimate of China's nuclear forces?

China's DF-5 ICBM had its first flight in 1971. In 41 years, the Pentagon claims China built a total of 50 ICBMs. Give me a break! China is launching 20 Long March/DF-31(A) rockets into space this year alone!

China's civilian sector can produce and launch 20 rockets/ICBMs this year, but China's defense industry can only produce one ICBM each year for the last 41 years?! The Pentagon is an idiot.

http://www.ndu.edu/press/paradox-of-power-ch3.html

"A 2010 Pentagon report estimates that China’s current ICBM arsenal consists of approximately 20 first-generation missiles and 30 solid-fueled, road-mobile second-generation missiles.[23]"

----------

Who am I to challenge the Pentagon? Well, the Pentagon has been dead wrong on many high-profile occasions. Their stupid estimates are fair game.

1. In January 2007, an U.S. general testified in front of Congress that it would require a minimum of ten years before China developed the capability to shoot down a satellite in orbit with a conventional weapon.

WRONG!

China shot down a defunct satellite that very afternoon to embarrass the Pentagon. It made a mockery of military intelligence at the Pentagon.

2. The Pentagon pretended China's Underground Great Wall didn't exist until last year's report. The Pentagon hasn't bothered to estimate the number of ICBMs in China's 5,000km Underground Great Wall. Right now, the current estimate is zero. This is absurd of course.

3. About a month before he left for China, then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates testified before Congress that China would not develop a fifth-generation fighter until 2025 at the earliest. When Gates visited China in January 2011, China leaked the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter in his honor.

Robert Gates was furious, because the Chinese made him look like a fool. According to press reports, Gates asked President Hu if China deliberately held the first public unveiling of the J-20 during his visit. Naturally, President Hu said it was just a coincidence. Yeah, right. Only an idiot would believe that denial.

China has a history of embarrassing the Pentagon for its lack of military intelligence. The Pentagon report on China's nuclear forces is no exception. If you want to know the truth, read post #3 closely.

My estimate is a lot better than the Pentagon's party line: China's ICBMs have remained below 50 for 30 years. Yeah, right. Who's going to swallow that load of fiction?
 
Did you bother reading post #3?

The Pentagon is spreading propaganda. Everyone else with a brain can see for themselves that the Pentagon estimate of 20 DF-5s and 30 combined DF-31s and DF-31As is wrong. (See citation below)

a. DF-5s have been in service since 1981. DF-5Bs are upgraded MIRVed versions. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 20 DF-5s were built and not a single one more since 1981.

b. 9 DF-31 TELs were shown at China's 1999 military parade. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 15 DF-31s were built and not a single one more since 1999.

c. 12 DF-31A TELs were shown at China's 2009 military parade. The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. 15 DF-31As were built and not a single one more since 2009.

d. According to the Pentagon estimate, there should be no ICBMs at all in China's 5,000km Underground Great Wall. Wait! What about the picture of 2 DF-5s in China's Underground Great Wall? So what? The Pentagon is sticking to its party line. No proof of ICBMs in China's Underground Great Wall and the current estimate is zero.

Alright, who is actually dumb enough to believe the Pentagon estimate of China's nuclear forces?

China's DF-5 ICBM had its first flight in 1971. In 42 years, the Pentagon claims China built a total of 50 ICBMs. Give me a break! China is launching 20 Long March/DF-31(A) rockets into space this year alone!

China's civilian sector can produce and launch 20 rockets/ICBMs this year, but China's defense industry can only produce one ICBM each year for the last 42 years?! The Pentagon is an idiot.

Paradox of Power: Chapter Three

"A 2010 Pentagon report estimates that China’s current ICBM arsenal consists of approximately 20 first-generation missiles and 30 solid-fueled, road-mobile second-generation missiles.[23]"

----------

Who am I to challenge the Pentagon? Well, the Pentagon has been dead wrong on many high-profile occasions. Their stupid estimates are fair game.

1. In January 2007, an U.S. general testified in front of Congress that it would require a minimum of ten years before China developed the capability to shoot down a satellite in orbit with a conventional weapon.

WRONG!

China shot down a defunct satellite that very afternoon to embarrass the Pentagon. It made a mockery of military intelligence at the Pentagon.

2. The Pentagon pretended China's Underground Great Wall didn't exist until last year's report. The Pentagon hasn't bothered to estimate the number of ICBMs in China's 5,000km Underground Great Wall. Right now, the current estimate is zero. This is absurd of course.

3. About a month before he left for China, then-Secretary of Defense Robert Gates testified before Congress that China would not develop a fifth-generation fighter until 2025 at the earliest. When Gates visited China in January 2011, China leaked the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter in his honor.

Robert Gates was furious, because the Chinese made him look like a fool. According to press reports, Gates asked President Hu if China deliberately held the first public unveiling of the J-20 during his visit. Naturally, President Hu said it was just a coincidence. Yeah, right. Only an idiot would believe that denial.

China has a history of embarrassing the Pentagon for its lack of military intelligence. The Pentagon report on China's nuclear forces is no exception. If you want to know the truth, read post #3 closely.

My estimate is a lot better than the Pentagon's party line: China's ICBMs have remained below 50 for 30 years. Yeah, right. Who's going to swallow that load of fiction?


USA isn't worried about Russia because they both have the old decayed nukes left from the Cold War, but China still preserved its thousands of nukes like brand new, and China was never part of nuclear arm treaty.

Otherwise, why would Obama wants to reduce the US nuclear stockpile to 300? Is he really a green pacifist or most of its nuclear stockpile are not useful anymore.
 
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