Chinese Carrier Battle Group

[j20blackdragon]

You don't know the basics of manufacturing.

Actually, you don't.

Just because you can produce that much aluminum don't mean crap.

It means a lot if we're talking about shipbuilding because every aircraft carrier and military vessel contains both steel and aluminum.

As I said before that an American farmer with the technology and methods can produce more than lets say a farmer from overseas. It takes a thousand farmers to match what an American produces.

We're not talking about farming and China isn't Africa.

Its like saying it takes more than a billion Chinese to achieve the same amount of GDP of American population of only 300 million. Get it?

Population size has nothing to do with anything. The average Chinese or American person doesn't work in shipbuilding.

Instead, you need to look at the number and size of shipyards and steel mills. Get it?

 

[Oldman1]

Actually, you don't.



It means a lot if we're talking about shipbuilding because every aircraft carrier and military vessel contains both steel and aluminum.



We're not talking about farming and China isn't Africa.



Population size has nothing to do with anything. The average Chinese or American person doesn't work in shipbuilding.

Instead, you need to look at the number and size of shipyards and steel mills. Get it?

Look at the industrial output in comparison between the U.S. and China.

Secondary sector of the economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like I said U.S. is only about 3% manufacturing total and can produce that much. Just because China can produce more but its economy is more manufacturing based compared to U.S. which is mostly services.

In WW2 most Americans didn't know how to make warplanes and ships. Interesting fact eh?

I'm comparing an American farmer to ones in Africa just for easy comparison. Not to insult the Chinese in a way.

Number of shipyards don't mean a thing if they can't produce carriers. Technology and methods. Get it?

 

[j20blackdragon]

Look at the industrial output in comparison between the U.S. and China.

Secondary sector of the economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like I said U.S. is only about 3% manufacturing total and can produce that much.

I've looked at it, and nowhere does it say anything about the US having only 3% manufacturing.

I don't see "3%" written anywhere in your link.

Just because China can produce more but its economy is more manufacturing based compared to U.S. which is mostly services.

Exactly.

US GDP is mostly services and these services don't help in a war.

Having a bunch of highly paid lawyers, doctors, accountants, professional athletes, and Hollywood actors adds a lot to GDP but doesn't help one bit when it comes to shipbuilding.

In WW2 most Americans didn't know how to make warplanes and ships. Interesting fact eh?

In WW2 the US had one of the largest shipbuilding industries on the planet. Now you're not even in the top 10. Interesting fact eh?

Number of shipyards don't mean a thing if they can't produce carriers. Technology and methods. Get it?

The Varyag was purchased from Ukraine as an empty steel hull. China built everything else. Technology and methods. Get it?

 

[UKBengali]

I can see plenty of butt-hurt people here

All that China needs is to get the correct design and then it can crank out super-carriers easily. An average of 2 destroyers are being put into service every year this decade and there is no reason to think that a wealthier China won't produce even more next decade.

Going by present trends I think that the final design of the 100,000 tonne EMAL catobar supercarrier should be finalised by 2025, and then the Chinese are likely to SIMULTANEOUSLY build 2 every 5 years till they have as much carriers as the US.

Mark my words, there is no way that China will be satisfied with only 5-6 carriers as it would not want to play second-fiddle to the US.

Those who think that China can reach it's true potential without having at least as much military power as the US do not understand how things work in this world.

 

[Speeder 2]

China's CBG will need a fixed-wing AWACS on board and more powerful SSNs to be truly awesome, apart from high sorties of J-15s.

 

[SQ8]

The US is still an industrial and technological powerhouse that is 10-20 years ahead of China currently in manufacturing technology. However, China is investing heavily in R&D while simultaneously stealing information where it can, when it can. That means that this gap of 10-20 years will close faster over the next 5-10 year to perhaps where it will be not more than 2-4. In addition, China will have one advantage over all the industrial knowhow and manufacturing capacity of the US: Cheap and ample manpower that is now increasingly skilled. This means that while the US may still produce systems that are 4-5 years ahead of the Chinese.. the Chinese will produce more of their systems that due to the lesser gap in sophistication and technology will negate that advantage.

BUT

It would be unwise to think that the US does not realize this, the recent efforts to dump funds in R&D in almost every sector while trying to revive manufacturing is exactly this realization in the US. If the economy does recover as planned, America will emerge again as the industrial powerhouse but this time unlike henry fords model T line.. the US will be doling out sophisticated quality technology that China will be hard pressed to match.

 

[Oldman1]

I've looked at it, and nowhere does it say anything about the US having only 3% manufacturing.

I don't see "3%" written anywhere in your link.



Exactly.

US GDP is mostly services and these services don't help in a war.

Having a bunch of highly paid lawyers, doctors, accountants, professional athletes, and Hollywood actors adds a lot to GDP but doesn't help one bit when it comes to shipbuilding.



In WW2 the US had one of the largest shipbuilding industries on the planet. Now you're not even in the top 10. Interesting fact eh?



The Varyag was purchased from Ukraine as an empty steel hull. China built everything else. Technology and methods. Get it?

As Oscar have said the U.S. is still the most technological powerhouse.

Economy of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of 2010, the country remains the world's largest manufacturer, representing a fifth of the global manufacturing output.

And considered that our economy is only 3% related to manufacturing alone. Get it?

Although most of the U.S. economy is composed of services, the United States is the world's largest manufacturer, with a 2009 industrial output of US$2.33 trillion. Its manufacturing output is greater than of Germany, France, India, and Brazil combined.[184] Main industries include petroleum, steel, automobiles, construction machinery, aerospace, agricultural machinery, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, and mining.

The US leads the world in airplane manufacturing,[185] which represents a large portion of US industrial output. American companies such as Boeing, Cessna (see: Textron), Lockheed Martin (see: Skunk Works), and General Dynamics produce a vast majority of the world's civilian and military aircraft in factories stretching across the United States.

The manufacturing sector of the U.S. economy has experienced substantial job losses over the past several years.[186][187] In January 2004, the number of such jobs stood at 14.3 million, down by 3.0 million jobs, or 17.5 percent, since July 2000 and about 5.2 million since the historical peak in 1979. Employment in manufacturing was its lowest since July 1950.[188] The number of steel workers fell from 500,000 in 1980 to 224,000 in 2000.[189]

Look at agriculture for example which I included in my previous posts.
Although agriculture comprises less than two percent of the economy, the United States is a net exporter of food. With vast tracts of temperate arable land, technologically advanced agribusiness, and agricultural subsidies, the United States controls almost half of world grain exports.[194] Products include wheat, corn, other grains, fruits, vegetables, cotton; beef, pork, poultry, dairy products; forest products; fish.

Just because we are not in the top ten in shipbuilding business does not mean we cannot outproduce warships compare to you. We don't even have to try so hard.
And you guys had to buy the hull of a ship. How hard is that? Why not make your own?

 

[jhungary]

The show your strength is never depend on how many overseas bases you have. If you have 40 over bases spread around the world while only 1 CV. Are you going to called yourself a global forces?

While another country has only 1 base while packed with 12 CV together. You still naively think thats regional forces?

Lol did you hear what you've just said??

Tell me how exactly you can put 12 CVs and their battlegroup escort (20 ship per group) that's 240 ship in 1 base?? Did you move your ship inland to stove them??

 

[jhungary]

As oppose to the Americans at that time right, you do know who the former world's manufacturer is before China right.

Also, manufacturing ships is much more efficient now with computers and better technology, we won't have to drop much to make a dozen battle groups, it's just not the greatest thing to do without a valid reason.


Now onto your never matching US forces, all I will say is this, America is not the first empire, and it's not even the most powerful.

British had far more colonies and bases than the Americans, Rome had more land, Napoleon controlled pretty much the continental Europe, while Russia for a time was the judge, jury and executioner or Europe, but that's all in the past now. The sun always sets, if it can set for China after 2000 years of dominance, it be more but the other "states" were too sparsely populated to dominate at that time, and it will set for the States.

Again, where you propose to put all the CBG you built in China? US have 2 coast, hence 4 Major Seaport, that's allows us to rotate 8 Carriers within US, and then we have many oversea bases. 5 of them are enough to rotate 3 carrier, hence we have 11

China have 1 coast and 2 Major port, 1 in Qingdao and 1 in Hainan. Other parts of the coast is occupied with other Naval asset. (Military and Civilian) unless you really want to store your excess CBG inland, there are no where to put it. And China, be that as they might, cannot support 10 Battlegroup constantly at sea

Do you know US suffered one of the most great depression after demobilisation, some economist even go ahead and said if the war had drag on to 1947, US would not be able to support it and would go bankrupt. Hence we use the nuke. Back then we are the Major manufacture hub by default as Europe is at war. But our manufacturing industrial is not as important or as advanced as China today.

try imagine China going Military Economy for a year. That mean you have shut down at least 70-80% of your civil manfacture capability and turn them into making warship, planes and bombs. And most of all, most Chinese man are require to get off work and go military Training. How much money would Chinese lose in that one year??

About the ship and bases The different is, beside bases in Italy, Singapore, South Korea and Japan, all of the Overseas bases were US Base (Guam, Diego Garcia, Wake Island, Midway Island, Puerto Rico, Virgin Island etc)
We do not colonise those places, those bases belong to us, they are part of our soil, just not with the US mainlands. You are right, the time of colonisation is long over. hence China will not gain any overseas bases after that. You can always dreams getting vast land like the Brits do in 1800 and American do in 1900. But didn't recent war American fought taught you anything? If you are not welcomed in that place, it doesn't matter how technological advance or how powerful your military is, you will not be albe to conlonise anyone unless they wanted to.

and come back and tell me when we fall, becasue you just wrote an article saying the west will not fall, just going back to normal, well, we are normal now.

 

[jhungary]

Great powers will never use carriers against each other in the drastically changed post ww2 era, because they all have capabilities to sink carriers if forced.

And once any is sinked, you can be sure that the suffering side won't take it well and it will soon become a nuclear exchange...

Therefore 11 CBG or not, they're no use to deal with China.

In post WW2, the scare & awe power of XX 1000s ton of diplomacy will only be used as a bragging right to maintain spheres of influences and as a real weapon system against weak nations or small-mid sized powers such as Iraq or India. BTW India, with its small dirty bombs, is far from a real nuke power. The only REAL nuke powers in the world are Russia, USA and China of UNSC 5. France and the UK are geographycally too small to threaten the former 3 with a nuclear exchange.

The red parts show that you have no Military experience. If you think you sink one ship, then the other Carrier will be afraid to go after the Chinese, think again.

Battle of the Nek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aussie troop were cut to piece in the first 2 charge all within 5 minutes, just like that 600 men lay infront of a ditch dead or dying, yet the 3 charge still go ahead after seeing the 2 charge got mow down and seeing there are no other way but will suffer the same fate as them as well.

Do you know why??

Or do you know why the French para Jump in to Dien Bien Phu after seeing the 5000 of their comrade killed by Viet-Minh and all hope lost and still jump in and trying to make a different?

I am afraid, if you manage to sink one of our CBG or carrier, you are just facing down the barrel of the gun of the other 10, not if we fail and we will use nuke. Or you actually believe 1 DF-21D = 1 Carrier kills and 11 DF-21D = 11 Carriers killed lol.

The blue parts show that you have no idea how Nuclear exchange works.

A.) You think small country like France and England can be ignore of their nuclear arsenal?? Think again. You do know what is "The Sum of all Fear?" not the Ben Afflick movie, but the reason behind why people should not be afriad of country that have 1000 or 10000 nuke, but it was the country who have 1 or 5 or 10 nuke and they don't care what happened if they use it, that is the one country you should be scare of.

Any nuke exchange will result in a chain reaction. That is no matter how you put it, it will eventually be Global Nuclear Exchange. Say UK uses its nuke, 50 of them and target 50 Russian City, Russia will retailiate with their own nuke, but not just to the UK, but also their potential allied, as the precedant has already been said, it is not first use anymore. And it would be stupid to wait for eventually US or France retailation anyway, so they Russian will fire the nuke to US and France too, using the same reason, US nuke will go after Russia, China (If they were in Russia camp, if China is in US camp, then Russian will nuke China not US) and North Korea. North Korea will nuke south korea, japan and/or China. And this will quickly become a global nuclear exchange.

The coutnry that have 1000 or 10,000 nuke is usually just talk, using them as their posture. But the country that have 1, 10, or 20 nuke is different. That's the concept of the sum of all fear.

B.) Modern nuclear device unlike old days is very accurate and capable. They will come in and destroy the most important target first. I wonder if China have more HVT then the number of nuke UK and France having??

So, you are wrong

 

[jhungary]

In WW2 the US had one of the largest shipbuilding industries on the planet. Now you're not even in the top 10?

The reason we were not in top 10 ship building list is because we do not need to lol not because we cant

For civilian ship, South Korean and Gulf state made them way cheaper than us, we would have buy them and ship them here and is still cheaper than we make one here

For military ship, its not like we do not havee a proper naval force like China did, chinese comes from haveing 70 ship navy in the 1970 to the 500 ship navy in 2010s. On the other hand, we had 780 ships in 1970 and about 680 now, if we were to do the same ship production as China for the same period, where will all those 500 extra ship goes? Sure as hell the US cannot operate 1200 ship navy lol...

Ship production is only for 2 purposes, you either use them or you sell them, Chinese need to use the 500 or so extra ship And our ship replacement and overseas order combine did not even need half of them, of course we wont make that much in tonage compare to China. That does not mean we cannot build as much ship as China, but the question is WHAT FOR?

 

[jhungary]

As Oscar have said the U.S. is still the most technological powerhouse.

Economy of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of 2010, the country remains the world's largest manufacturer, representing a fifth of the global manufacturing output.

And considered that our economy is only 3% related to manufacturing alone. Get it?

Although most of the U.S. economy is composed of services, the United States is the world's largest manufacturer, with a 2009 industrial output of US$2.33 trillion. Its manufacturing output is greater than of Germany, France, India, and Brazil combined.[184] Main industries include petroleum, steel, automobiles, construction machinery, aerospace, agricultural machinery, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, and mining.

The US leads the world in airplane manufacturing,[185] which represents a large portion of US industrial output. American companies such as Boeing, Cessna (see: Textron), Lockheed Martin (see: Skunk Works), and General Dynamics produce a vast majority of the world's civilian and military aircraft in factories stretching across the United States.

The manufacturing sector of the U.S. economy has experienced substantial job losses over the past several years.[186][187] In January 2004, the number of such jobs stood at 14.3 million, down by 3.0 million jobs, or 17.5 percent, since July 2000 and about 5.2 million since the historical peak in 1979. Employment in manufacturing was its lowest since July 1950.[188] The number of steel workers fell from 500,000 in 1980 to 224,000 in 2000.[189]

Look at agriculture for example which I included in my previous posts.
Although agriculture comprises less than two percent of the economy, the United States is a net exporter of food. With vast tracts of temperate arable land, technologically advanced agribusiness, and agricultural subsidies, the United States controls almost half of world grain exports.[194] Products include wheat, corn, other grains, fruits, vegetables, cotton; beef, pork, poultry, dairy products; forest products; fish.

Just because we are not in the top ten in shipbuilding business does not mean we cannot outproduce warships compare to you. We don't even have to try so hard.
And you guys had to buy the hull of a ship. How hard is that? Why not make your own?

They eont understand the different,

The chinese need to build that much ship because they were started with nothing, and we started with 700 naval ship

Lol what the point we build the same tonnage is for? So our navy can operate 1200 ships and 20 carrier group? Lol

 

[rcrmj]

China's CBG will need a fixed-wing AWACS on board and more powerful SSNs to be truly awesome, apart from high sorties of J-15s.

fixed-wing AWACS are under testing, it is not a modifiction of Y-7 or Y-12, but having big problems, planned to field on AC in 2014, but likely to be delayed to 2015

 

[Juice]

The show your strength is never depend on how many overseas bases you have. If you have 40 over bases spread around the world while only 1 CV. Are you going to called yourself a global forces?

While another country has only 1 base while packed with 12 CV together. You still naively think thats regional forces?

Of course....if you have 40 bases and 15 carriers it's a different kettle of fish altogether. Back on topic....it's a cute little CBG!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Magnificent !! .... the FLEET looks like wall of china , spread out wide and strong as a fortress