China's Uighurs fight for rights

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The Uiyghurs should be treated as equal citizens, same as the Han..if they are not, it's wrong. But what proof do you have that they are not treated fairly?

The proof is in the reading and keeping abreast with events.

Do check the internet.

 

[roadrunner]

I want to know your evidence though, and what sources you are using to come to this conclusion.

 

[gpit]

Dear GPit

You have posted certain seperatist Problems which Indian Society Faces ..
Well dear friend this is quite common is every society and No one can deny that , and in that struggle ,Security forces do cross the line sometime in every country , but what matters is the ability of that society to criticise them and do introspection .

What I pointed out was inability of Chinese system to do introsepction and control this brutal attack on its own citizen and this has lead to massacre of Poor Citizens
Cultural Revolution - 2 Million -Link Cultural Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tiananmen Square - Thousands Link The Legacy of Tiananmen Square

Tianmen Sqaure -
Free and unbiased Media works in that direction

You failed to show how your introspective or criticizing system has improved the benefits of your common people.

Maybe you can help all of us to solve those puzzles lingering around:

In your constantly introspective society, why in a state called Uttar Pradesh 40,000 pregnant women die every year. (Infochange India News Features Why 40,000 pregnant women die in UP every year)
Your 60 years of independence and introspection amounts to 2.4 million poor pregnant women perished.

In 6 years period immediately before 2003, 0.1 million farmers committed suicide and perished in your introspective and criticizing system. (Mass Suicides by Indian Farmers, Shape of Things to Come) Who is criticizing, and criticizes for whose benefits?

Why your 60 years of introspection and criticism amounts to 30 million lives losing their basic human rights to survive and to grow, given that bout 10 million female fetuses were killed in the past 20 years? (Female foeticide statistics for India, 10 million girls been killed in India in the past 20 years)

…

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I want to know your evidence though, and what sources you are using to come to this conclusion.

Do exercise yourself to prove that it is incorrect.

I don't have to bring any evidence since this forum is not a court or a police station!

I haver based it on what I have read and I am aware of the case of the Catholic Bishop. However, this famous case, if you do not know, then what can one say about the exposure to world events.

No offence meant.

Just getting a bit exasperated at your wanting "evidence'' for a well known fact and on your own part, you glibly state that there are no Pakistani Taliban and only Afghani Taliban and that none are operating in Pakistan and yet they are operating under the title, just to have kicks. In other word, you want others to accept you as the Gospel and others have to flourish "evidence".

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Let me help you since you will go into a ping pong game.

CHINA-ORDAIN (THIRD UPDATE) May-4-2006 (960 words) With photos posted May 3. xxxi

China ordains two bishops without pope's approval, draws Vatican ire

By Catholic News Service

WUHU, China (CNS) -- Chinese church leaders ordained two Catholic bishops without papal approval, prompting strong objections from the Vatican.

Father Joseph Liu Xinhong, 41, was ordained bishop of Anhui May 3 at Wuhu's St. Joseph Church, the cathedral of the Wuhu Diocese before the government-approved church administration in China changed diocesan boundaries.

On April 30, Father Joseph Ma Yinglin, 41, was ordained bishop of Kunming, also without papal approval.

At the Vatican May 4, spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said Pope Benedict XVI was "profoundly displeased" to learn of the ordinations. Navarro-Valls said ordaining new bishops without papal approval seriously harms the unity of the church, which can lead to "severe canonical sanctions."

However, Navarro-Valls also noted that the Vatican had received information that "bishops and priests were placed under strong pressure and threats" to participate in the ordinations, which lacking papal approval were "illegitimate and, in addition, contrary to their consciences."

The spokesman said the Vatican had an obligation to speak out on behalf of suffering Chinese Catholics, "especially those bishops and priests who find themselves obliged against their consciences to ordain or participate in episcopal ordinations which neither the candidates nor the consecrating bishops want to do without having received a pontifical mandate."

Navarro-Valls said the Vatican hoped that "such unacceptable acts of violent and inadmissible" pressure would not be placed on priests and bishops in the future, although the Vatican has heard that other ordinations without papal approval were being planned.

He said the ordinations created an obstacle to Vatican-Chinese dialogue.

Last year, relations between the two showed signs of improvement when several new Chinese bishops chosen by the Vatican received government approval.

When the communist government formed the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association in the 1950s, the association officially spurned ties with the Vatican, while an underground church continued to exist and often faced persecution. In recent years, Catholics familiar with the situation in China have said more than 90 percent of the government-approved or open-church bishops have reconciled with the Vatican, and in some areas of China there is intermingling of the two groups. Much of this depends on the local bishop, they said.

Nine papally approved bishops from the government-approved church ordained Bishop Ma, UCA News reported. The five government-approved bishops named as ordaining Bishop Liu also have reconciled with the Vatican; other concelebrants included about 30 Chinese priests and some visiting priests from overseas.

Most Catholics in Anhui belong to the underground church and refuse to join the open church. An underground lay leader in Anhui who asked not to be named told UCA News May 2 that his community as well as open-church Catholics would not accept a bishop without papal approval, and that such an ordination would harm church efforts in evangelization and reconciliation.

The layman said public security officers had already tightened control on underground Catholics and "warned Catholics not to create trouble." For this reason, he said, he and several other lay leaders left home for a few days to avoid government control.

Another underground church leader told UCA News May 2 that in defying the Vatican Bishop Liu would not gain the support of local Catholics. However, about 1,000 Catholics and guests from Anhui province packed the church for the ordination or else viewed the televised liturgy in an adjacent public square.

Bishop Liu told UCA News after his ordination that he has a heavy responsibility but, with the help of the Holy Spirit, he and supportive laypeople "can build a better future for the church in Anhui." He said the diocese's 18 priests had expressed their support and solidarity, and all of them want to develop evangelization.

He also said the diocese plans to build a new cathedral in Hefei, Anhui's provincial capital, where he will later be based.

Born in 1964, Bishop Liu graduated from Sheshan Regional Seminary in Shanghai and was ordained a priest of the Bengbu Diocese in 1990. He has served in parishes in the Anqing and Bengbu dioceses.

The new bishop had been administrator of the Anhui Diocese since Bishop Joseph Zhu Huayu died in February 2005. He also has served as a vice chairman and secretary-general of Anhui's Catholic Patriotic Association and as a member of the provincial People's Political Consultative Conference, an advisory body of the provincial government.

About 1,000 Catholics, government officials and guests packed the Kunming cathedral for Bishop Ma's ordination Mass. A layperson from Kunming told UCA News April 30 that some Catholics knew Bishop Ma's ordination was not papally approved and refused to attend the Mass. However, their parish priests told them the onus rested on the ordaining bishops and the new bishop, and that laypeople could attend the Mass without any worry.

Bishop Ma was born April 22, 1965, and ordained a priest of Xingtai Diocese in northern China's Hebei province in 1989. He has served as secretary-general of the Bishops' Conference of the Catholic Church in China since 1998 and was made a Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association vice chairman in 2004.

About two years ago, he was designated a priest of the Kunming diocese, but he has stayed mostly in Beijing since then. He is one of three Catholic deputies in the National People's Congress, China's parliament.

On Jan. 6, 2000, five bishops were ordained in Beijing without papal mandate, which strained relations between China and the Vatican. China ordained another bishop that June without papal approval.

One Chinese Catholic source told Catholic News Service that at least one and probably more than one of those bishops have since reconciled with the Vatican.

In early 2001, UCA News reported that some 70 seminarians and teachers were expelled from China's national seminary for not attending the unapproved ordinations.

END
CNS STORY: China ordains two bishops without pope's approval, draws Vatican ire

 

[gpit]

LN, Please don’t take me wrong by above facts. My heart is weeping for those suffered, be they Indians or Chinese.

Your system is perhaps the best you can have, and the Chinese one is probably the best for them. What I’m trying to convey is that, as a developing country, each has its own problems to solve. Many of these are the remnants of problems left by the colonists; some are the problems of the local traditions. Developing countries need to work hard to solve those problems; not pointing figures at others mistakes, perhaps in a vain and evil attempt to make oneself feel better or loftier...

 

[Flintlock]

You failed to show how your introspective or criticizing system has improved the benefits of your common people.

Maybe you can help all of us to solve those puzzles lingering around:

In your constantly introspective society, why in a state called Uttar Pradesh 40,000 pregnant women die every year. (Infochange India News Features Why 40,000 pregnant women die in UP every year)
Your 60 years of independence and introspection amounts to 2.4 million poor pregnant women perished.

In 6 years period immediately before 2003, 0.1 million farmers committed suicide and perished in your introspective and criticizing system. (Mass Suicides by Indian Farmers, Shape of Things to Come) Who is criticizing, and criticizes for whose benefits?

Why your 60 years of introspection and criticism amounts to 30 million lives losing their basic human rights to survive and to grow, given that bout 10 million female fetuses were killed in the past 20 years? (Female foeticide statistics for India, 10 million girls been killed in India in the past 20 years)

…

Gpit, there are sound historical and social reasons for all this, none of which have to do with the shortcomings of democracy.

Indian society has been an introverted society for several centuries now, and only recently have people started to respect themselves and demand more from both themselves and society.

China is a different society and has different problems, and its the same with India.

60 years of Independence after a slavery of 700 years is hardly enough time to recover from the damage.

I am quite confident, that over time, both India and China will reclaim their place in the world as great nations and civilizations.

Thanks

 

[Logic note]

Originally Posted by gpit View Post
You failed to show how your introspective or criticizing system has improved the benefits of your common people.

Maybe you can help all of us to solve those puzzles lingering around:

In your constantly introspective society, why in a state called Uttar Pradesh 40,000 pregnant women die every year. (Infochange India News Features Why 40,000 pregnant women die in UP every year)
Your 60 years of independence and introspection amounts to 2.4 million poor pregnant women perished.

In 6 years period immediately before 2003, 0.1 million farmers committed suicide and perished in your introspective and criticizing system. (Mass Suicides by Indian Farmers, Shape of Things to Come) Who is criticizing, and criticizes for whose benefits?

Why your 60 years of introspection and criticism amounts to 30 million lives losing their basic human rights to survive and to grow, given that bout 10 million female fetuses were killed in the past 20 years? (Female foeticide statistics for India, 10 million girls been killed in India in the past 20 years)

Dear Gpit
You are confused between intentional massacre by an government and deaths due to ignorance . the two cases you posted is an clear example of your blindness. Farmer suicide is not because of government but because these farmers couldnt pay back there loan which they had taken from private banks and just because Media hav bought this up government has launced various package to help them .
female foeticide is common is most of ignorant societies even in China .
While Tiananmen Masacare and Death due to Cultural revolution was executed by Brutal communist party ..

 

[gpit]

Both SA and LN,

It is only your opinion that death caused by government’s criminally irresponsible laissez-fair is justified. A good government should be “for the people”. If they failed to educate the ignorant, or event let the ignorance flourish, or manipulate the ignorance for their own benefits, or not stop the wrong-doings resolutely with iron fist, the government is killing softly.

While you acquiesce your government’s brutally soft kill of its own people, with an excuse of 700 years vs 60 years, have you ever though about Chinese 5000 years vs 57 years?

While you claim democracy needs to learn to develop, why do you deny Chinese system also needs to learn to develop? Tell me why?

Dare you deny that CPC liberated Chinese from Western evil forces, so that their life expectance is raised from 50 to 72, so that their illiteracy is reduced from 70% to 10%, so that their infant death rate at birth now is half that of their biggest democratic neighbor, so that Chinese start to enjoy unprecedented welfare, so that there is no terrorist organization surviving in China? And you equal all that to “brutal”? If so, yours democratic government is more brutal!

Dare you assert the Tiananmen incident was not originated from for peaceful development of China? Though at least I believe that there got to be a better way to approach the dispute at that time, but don’t you sense that both the government and the people lacked experiences at that time, and now have learnt from this and no major incident like that happened in nearly 20 years, when rich-poor gap is probably more widened?

In contrast, UP pregnant women are probably still being softly killed in that rate. Farmers are instill bored down by debits. “…In the dehumanized statistical gimmickry, the utter devastation of the 100,000 households of dead farmers comprising women, children and elders was quietly buried under the soft thick carpet of the Indian Parliament.” Mass Suicides by Indian Farmers, Shape of Things to Come

While you implicitely assert democracy/vote can automatically fix problems and do no wrongs, I challenge your point of view.

Sincerely hope you’ll have an in-depth study of China and Chinese history, but not through propaganda.

Hope above helps.

 

[roadrunner]

Do exercise yourself to prove that it is incorrect.

I don't have to bring any evidence since this forum is not a court or a police station!

I haver based it on what I have read and I am aware of the case of the Catholic Bishop. However, this famous case, if you do not know, then what can one say about the exposure to world events.

No offence meant.

Just getting a bit exasperated at your wanting "evidence'' for a well known fact and on your own part, you glibly state that there are no Pakistani Taliban and only Afghani Taliban and that none are operating in Pakistan and yet they are operating under the title, just to have kicks. In other word, you want others to accept you as the Gospel and others have to flourish "evidence".

Funny, but I never stated that. I suggest you get a new pair of glasses. No offence meant. And you don't have to bring any evidence, I only asked for it. That's fine.

 

[sahaliyan]

SA,blame foreigners is easiest thing,but we should find what's mistakes we did,because Indians owb India today.no one think democracy is wrong,but if half people can't vote,This democracy is not true democracy.
I think democracy will come in China in future,now,I wish CCP give us more rights

 

[Flintlock]

SA,blame foreigners is easiest thing,but we should find what's mistakes we did,because Indians owb India today.no one think democracy is wrong,but if half people can't vote,This democracy is not true democracy.
I think democracy will come in China in future,now,I wish CCP give us more rights

Its not a question of scapegoating foreigners. The damage they caused is very real.

I agree. The democracy in India is dysfunctional to a large extent because more than a third of the population can't read.

However, you must understand that in a country as vast and varied as India, it takes time for things to change, especially in comparison with an efficient and decisive central govt. that the Chinese have.

However, I consider a great thing that democracy was adopted early. It will ensure that when the time comes, India will have a robust culture of public debate in place.

Of course, we all know that India cannot even exist without a democratic govt.

 

[sahaliyan]

Its not a question of scapegoating foreigners. The damage they caused is very real.

I agree. The democracy in India is dysfunctional to a large extent because more than a third of the population can't read.

However, you must understand that in a country as vast and varied as India, it takes time for things to change, especially in comparison with an efficient and decisive central govt. that the Chinese have.

However, I consider a great thing that democracy was adopted early. It will ensure that when the time comes, India will have a robust culture of public debate in place.

Of course, we all know that India cannot even exist without a democratic govt.

SA,we all know without British,satti would still exit in India.They did both good and bad things.As for Mughal Empire,Taiji Mahal's bomb is a only thing I know of this empire

 

[Flintlock]

SA,we all know without British,satti would still exit in India.They did both good and bad things.As for Mughal Empire,Taiji Mahal's bomb is a only thing I know of this empire

You're right. The British were better than the Mughals. If you want to know why Indian resent the Mughals, just check the 'Hindutva' thread.

Thanks

 

[Logic note]

Dear G pit

CPC didnt give Freedom to China it was Chinese PPl who fought for the freedom .
all the countries all over the world fought for their frredom under various differnt ideologies . In India It was Gandhi and his Non violence .
it was Communist as well as Nationlist Parties which fought for independce together . Just because Mao took control of most of china and he defeated Chang kai shek and thrw him to Taiwan doesnt mean you give all the credit to Communist

Secondly It is not Indian Government which is killing ppl but its poverty and ignorence and this poverty and ignorance is every where , even in China .

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/world/asia/13china.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Grinding poverty defies China's boom - International Herald Tribune

As per your Story of Female foeticide India , see this , same problem in China and grow up . try to face reality .
The only problem is that unlike India , no one dares to write the truth in China

Gendercide Watch: Female Infanticide

so your logic of justifying the brutality of Chinese's government by showing crop failure in Certain part of India shows your foolishness and lack of respect for human dignity.