China's Renewable Energy to Outpace U.S., E.U. and Japan Combined

[AirRodgers]

lol, so what you are saying Nuclear energy is not a viable power producing source too then??

You cannot get natually existed Uranium and Plutonium to power a nuke plant.
It will take energy to make (Enrich) the Nuclear Material
It will take energy to tranport said material into Hydrobaric chamber (Unless you are willing to carry by hand)
It will take energy to break the atom in fissil material.

So nuclear power plant must not be feastible then.....

I never say Hydrogen energy is a self producing renewable energy like solar or wind power. I am just saying this is the direction of where the Western scientist goes. However, once you have started the sequent of Hydrogen fuel cell, you can harness the energy produce by hydro fuel cell to make hydrogen and compress hydrogen. This is exactly what a nuclear plants is doing

Currently, every hydrogen filling station get their energy by either burning methane or solar electrolysis, so what's your point?? That is because such method is cheaper than dropping a sodium into cold water or having to rig a acid fuel cell to power a electrolysis of water. That does not mean those method are not feastible

And currently, do you know why renewable cannot even take over 20% of world energy produce?? because renewable energy is not dependable. It very much depend on nature occurance.

China focus on Renewable energy, US focus on fuel cell, i don't see what and why you have anything to go after it. Some guy say you cannot make Hydrogen without using energy, and i said you can, am i wrong??

I'm not saying that. I'm replying to your quote

There are no moving part or chamber in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, all you need is the input of Hydrogen. And as i said Hydrogen can be made without outside energy source. Hydrogen put in by filling station will charge the battery to go along, you don't need petrol in a Hydrogen fuel car as in a prius.

And currently, do you know why renewable cannot even take over 20% of world energy produce?? because renewable energy is not dependable. It very much depend on nature occurance.

Off course the sun don't shine 24 hours a day and there are also cloudy days. On wind farm a lot of the wind mill aren't spinning because lack of wind.. The only reliable renewable energy is hydro(dam), I don't know much about geo thermo so I won't go there...

 

[Kloitra]

lol, so what you are saying Nuclear energy is not a viable power producing source too then??

You cannot get natually existed Uranium and Plutonium to power a nuke plant.
It will take energy to make (Enrich) the Nuclear Material
It will take energy to tranport said material into Hydrobaric chamber (Unless you are willing to carry by hand)
It will take energy to break the atom in fissil material.

So nuclear power plant must not be feastible then.....

I never say Hydrogen energy is a self producing renewable energy like solar or wind power. I am just saying this is the direction of where the Western scientist goes. However, once you have started the sequent of Hydrogen fuel cell, you can harness the energy produce by hydro fuel cell to make hydrogen and compress hydrogen. This is exactly what a nuclear plants is doing

Currently, every hydrogen filling station get their energy by either burning methane or solar electrolysis, so what's your point?? That is because such method is cheaper than dropping a sodium into cold water or having to rig a acid fuel cell to power a electrolysis of water. That does not mean those method are not feastible

And currently, do you know why renewable cannot even take over 20% of world energy produce?? because renewable energy is not dependable. It very much depend on nature occurance.

China focus on Renewable energy, US focus on fuel cell, i don't see what and why you have anything to go after it. Some guy say you cannot make Hydrogen without using energy, and i said you can, am i wrong??

Nukes are entirely different than chemicals. The net result of nuclear plant is energy output. They produce more energy than that needed to create fissile material or other processes. While it takes more energy to mass produce hydrogen than it gives by oxidation.

May be you are mistaking the concept. You use more energy then needed (all processes are inherently inefficient) to break water and produce hydrogen, and then get less energy when it becomes water again.

In case of nuclear plants, you are simply destroying mass. So in the output, you have less mass, but more energy than you have used up since start.

 

[jhungary]

@AirRodgers @Kloitra

The question in question is can you produce Hydrogen without energy. Answer is, you can. By electrolysis all you need is Water, anykind of acid, and some wire

First, get some nautally existed Acid (Food acid for example) or you can use Iron ore and wait for it to oxide with water and you will get sulphuric acid that way Or Formic Acid, which natually existed in ant venom

Put two metal rod in it, called anode and catnode

Anode: HCOOH → CO2 + 2 H+ + 2 e-
Cathode: 1/2 O2 + 2 H+ + 2 e- → H2O
Net reaction: HCOOH + 1/2 O2 → CO2 + H2O

Then you will get power. And now, rig an external circuit and connect 2 metal rod on the other end, and with a big pile of water. You will get hydrogen and oxygen on either end of the metal.

Now, for electrolysis to work, you need a 9V electricity voltage, given a Formic acid will get you 1-1.5V, you will need 6 more set up and stacked the electricity into 9V.

Now, is this process expenisve to do what i describe?? You bet your *** it is, but is it doable? YES IT IS

The question is is it doable, the answer is yes, will they do it like that is another matter.

Quit bugging me about the sodium thing, that was an example to illustrate what chemical reaction is.


And hydrogen fuel cell is more efficience than normal electricity, if you capture the heat generated via hydrogen fuel cell, you are talking about 85% efficiency


Formic acid fuel cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Formic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Electrolysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



 

Nukes are entirely different than chemicals. The net result of nuclear plant is energy output. They produce more energy than that needed to create fissile material or other processes. While it takes more energy to mass produce hydrogen than it gives by oxidation.

May be you are mistaking the concept. You use more energy then needed (all processes are inherently inefficient) to break water and produce hydrogen, and then get less energy when it becomes water again.

In case of nuclear plants, you are simply destroying mass. So in the output, you have less mass, but more energy than you have used up since start.

That's where you are wrong, you probable have not heard of artificial photosynthesis technique for hydrogen extraction. All you need is sunlight

Artificial photosynthesis hits milestone in producing cheap, clean hydrogen from water | ExtremeTech

 

[Kloitra]

@AirRodgers @Kloitra

The question in question is can you produce Hydrogen without energy. Answer is, you can. By electrolysis

First, get some nautally existed Acid (Food acid for example) or you can use Iron ore and wait for it to oxide with water and you will get sulphuric acid that way Or Formic Acid, which natually existed in ant venom

Put two metal rod in it, called anode and catnode

Anode: HCOOH → CO2 + 2 H+ + 2 e-
Cathode: 1/2 O2 + 2 H+ + 2 e- → H2O
Net reaction: HCOOH + 1/2 O2 → CO2 + H2O

You missed the entire point. I was talking about commercial. But even what you suggested is not energy efficient.

How are you going to extract acid. More importantly, the metal rod. Any metal which can react with acid would not be found in nature in pure form. Even inert metals like gold and silver need lot of energy to extract, let alone other reactive metal. Getting pure form of any reactive metal is more energy consuming than what you can get from its reaction with acid. If you want some chemicals which are naturally occurring and can be used as a source of energy, than petroleum is the biggest one. Otherwise, as in your example above, you need a lot of energy to create them.

I do not know of any commercial method where you can produce hydrogen using less energy than one released by its oxidation. Only positive about fuel cell is that its clean source. Its costly, requires hydrogen (not so safe), and unlike electric vehicles, you have to go to a gas pump!

Every source of energy has its positives and negatives. The best in my view is electricity. You are already establishing power plants, it is clean, easy to store and transport, easy to use. Chemicals are either difficult to extract/produce/contain, or are source of pollution, or have some other associated problems.

 

[AirRodgers]

The question in question is can you produce Hydrogen without energy. Answer is, you can. By electrolysis all you need is Water, anykind of acid, and some wire

Firs

I think you got the context of the question wrong, the question from my understanding of it was hydrogen as being produce as a fuel sources. That mean in large amount and when you need a large amount of anything its going to cost you money. It will cost you money because it require a lot energy to produce. The energy might not be directly needed but process surrounding its production does use energy and a lot of it.

 

[jhungary]

@AirRodgers @Kloitra

Oh My God you guys......

This is the original question i answered with my Chemical Reaction thing this is what the Chinese guy asked

Bullshit...where does hydrogen come from ? You need energy to produce it...

Title : You need Energy to produce Hydrogen.

My answer: NO you can use chemical reaction to produce hydrogen.

Maybe you seeing thing that i don't i did not see anywhere from the original question saying or asking whether the way to produce energy via Hydrogen is fiscalable. or whether it is economical to produce hydrogen with any method supplied.

I did not see that anywhere in his original post.

He posted a question or remark, saying Producing Hydrogen require energy, and i tell him that the remark is incorrect, i just basically explain the whole process on how you can produce Hydrogen in Laboratory setting WITHOUT energy input, just chemical.

He asked a question, i answered tghe question, i do not get his context wrong, because there are no context.

However, Hydrogen as an energy source is Similar to ACTUALLY CHEAPER than burning fossile fuel.

Use Honda FCX Clarity as an example.

Clarity runs on a 4.1 Kg Hydrogen tank.

According to EPA, a full tank can run 240 mile

According to AAA, the petrol price in the US is 3.19 US per gal
While each Kg of Hydrogen seperated by Splitting hydrocarbon method is about $5 per kilogram.

Let's uses a toyota prius (Petrol-Electric Car) as an example to compare it with FCX Clarity.

According to US Government Fuel Economy watch dog, 2012 Prius runs 2 gallon per hundred miles

to run 240 mile, a simple calculation will show you you need 4.8 gallon of fuel

While 4.1 Kilogram of Hydrogen is needed for a Clarity to run 240 mile

So in the end, the Fuel per $ is

FCX Clarity - $20.5 per 240 miles
2012 Prius - $15.6 per 240 miles.

How much is the differet? I would say not much.

And then new tech is coming everyday for hydrogen productio

Compare Side-by-Side
Gas Prices Falling in the U.S., Dip Below $3 a Gallon in Six States - Carscoops
Honda FCX Clarity - Vehicle Specifications - Official Web Site
Hydrogen Filling Stations Are Still Rare

 

[AirRodgers]

the person you quote probably assume its hydrogen as in mass produce fuel resource not a high school experiment.

IMO fuel cell will not make it, just too costly relative to current fuel prices, within 25 years MSTR (molten salt thorium reactor)or LFTR( liquid fluoride thorium reactor)will be commercialize. Then energy will be so abundance desert will be reclaim by desalination and the end to war fought for energy resources..


btw I get 400 to 450 mpt on my awd HondaCRV per tank, last fill up 11 gallon only cost me $33.. gas price in my area went under $3

the infrastructure for fuel cell is just too much for it to even get started on a large scale, the prius succeeded because it works under current fuel infrastructure.

 

[xunzi]

Probably because the US, Europe and west of the world is going on the other direction - Bio fuel cell

US, German, Japan and SK is the 4 most dominant Bio-fuel technology research in the world, which Chinese invest in alternative energy in the form of renewable energy source, we run the other alternative energy path, bio fuel cell. Namely hydrogen fuel cell

The west solely build the renewable energy to Appeased the right wing environmentalist, so that they will shut up about solar panel

You are so laughable. Bio-fuel technology is part of the overall Renewable Energy Agenda that the rest of the world are invested in, in which China is also a huge player.

Fuel cells are not a new technology to China. Its universities have been developing the technology for many decades and the country hosts a number of well established commercial fuel cell companies.

The opportunities for fuel cells to contribute to a low carbon economy in the country are clear. China relies heavily upon coal-fired power for electricity generation; is the leading emitter of greenhouse gases (measured in absolute terms); has the largest domestic automobile manufacturing industry in the world; and is home to the largest and most rapidly expanding mobile telecommunications network on the planet.

Projects are underway to increase the contribution of renewable energy to China’s electricity mix. This must be approached carefully in any country because the variability of renewables can cause grid instability. Balancing the grid is key to avoiding power cuts and fuel cells can contribute here. Excess electricity can be channelled into hydrogen production, which in turn can be used in fuel cell vehicles. Integrating a low-carbon transport solution as a means to facilitate decarbonisation of the energy grid would be an elegant solution.

With its ever growing automotive industry, China is well placed to be a dominant force in this sector. Plans for commercial deployment of fuel cells mirror those of other regions and virtually all major fuel cell demonstration projects thus far have involved transport fuel cells, either for cars, buses or multi-person sightseeing vehicles.

The necessary hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is being developed alongside the vehicle demonstrations, with both permanent and mobile hydrogen refuelling stations currently in operation.

China has three mobile telecommunications providers, all of which rank in the top 21 in the world, measured by number of subscribers. The benefits of fuel cell uninterruptible power systems in this industry are recognised around the world and test systems have been operated in China for the past few years. Batteries currently dominate this industry, but with the cost of fuel cells decreasing and the added benefit of longer runtimes (a key attribute in areas with unreliable grid power) telecoms backup fuel cells are well poised for growth.

Financial support from the Chinese government is strong with fuel cells identified as a key future technology and funded accordingly. Chinese companies throughout the supply chain from catalysts to membranes and system integrators to end users are all driving fuel cell adoption leading China to become an international competitor.

 

[Destro]

so i tell you i cannot find your question and you say there are

You are not willing to retype the question nor can you point to me where your question is in this forum if they are not deleted.

What am i suppose to do?? Imagine what you ask me and answer it??

lol

The threads are there in your profile, but you don't want to click back and find them because you are a weasel.

It's pathetic to watch you try to weasel your way out of a debate

Next time, if you can't handle the heat, don't comment on the thread.

 

[jhungary]

btw I get 400 to 450 mpg on my awd Honda CRV per tank, last fill up 11 gallon only cost me $33.. gas price in my area went under $3

The person i quote is referred to nothing as far as i see, he asked can hydrogen made without energy and i said yes and i supported the answer. If he would have mean if Hydrogen made economically for business, he would have said that. If you do not ask with word, how else do i get the question from? I cannot read mind you knows?

ANd please tell me where you can find a vehicle on earth can run 400 mile per gallon traditionally it's 20 mile per 1 gallon, where in the world you can find a car that give you 450 mile in 1 gallon of fuel??

According to Honda website, it's 25 mpg not 400 to 450

What you said is 400-450 mile to tank not mile to gallon

25 mile per gallon mean you pay about $30 to drive 240 mile which is more expensive than driving Clarity

And remember oil price is always on the way up while hydrogen can only goes down. AS you can finish oil someday but you will not finish water. (Otherwise we all would have died)

and finally, IEA disagree with you, IEA predict Fuel cell will give out 200-300 GigaWatt and 2% share of World electricity in the year 2050

Stationary fuel cells are a more robust technology option that is much less sensitive to energy
policies and competing technology options. Stationary solid oxide fuel cells (SOFC) and molten
carbonate fuel cells (MCFC) – mostly fuelled by natural gas – can contribute to meeting the demand
for distributed combined heat and power with some 200-300 Gigawatts, equal to 2-3% of global
generating capacity in 2050. Currently, private investment in stationary fuel cells and installed
capacity is continuously growing.

http://www.iea.org/textbase/npsum/Hydrogen2005SUM.pdf

SO, whatever you think, IEA think otherwise, and frankly, i tend to believe IEA 

You are so laughable. Bio-fuel technology is part of the overall Renewable Energy Agenda that the rest of the world are invested in, in which China is also a huge player.

Fuel cells are not a new technology to China. Its universities have been developing the technology for many decades and the country hosts a number of well established commercial fuel cell companies.

The opportunities for fuel cells to contribute to a low carbon economy in the country are clear. China relies heavily upon coal-fired power for electricity generation; is the leading emitter of greenhouse gases (measured in absolute terms); has the largest domestic automobile manufacturing industry in the world; and is home to the largest and most rapidly expanding mobile telecommunications network on the planet.

Projects are underway to increase the contribution of renewable energy to China’s electricity mix. This must be approached carefully in any country because the variability of renewables can cause grid instability. Balancing the grid is key to avoiding power cuts and fuel cells can contribute here. Excess electricity can be channelled into hydrogen production, which in turn can be used in fuel cell vehicles. Integrating a low-carbon transport solution as a means to facilitate decarbonisation of the energy grid would be an elegant solution.

With its ever growing automotive industry, China is well placed to be a dominant force in this sector. Plans for commercial deployment of fuel cells mirror those of other regions and virtually all major fuel cell demonstration projects thus far have involved transport fuel cells, either for cars, buses or multi-person sightseeing vehicles.

The necessary hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is being developed alongside the vehicle demonstrations, with both permanent and mobile hydrogen refuelling stations currently in operation.

China has three mobile telecommunications providers, all of which rank in the top 21 in the world, measured by number of subscribers. The benefits of fuel cell uninterruptible power systems in this industry are recognised around the world and test systems have been operated in China for the past few years. Batteries currently dominate this industry, but with the cost of fuel cells decreasing and the added benefit of longer runtimes (a key attribute in areas with unreliable grid power) telecoms backup fuel cells are well poised for growth.

Financial support from the Chinese government is strong with fuel cells identified as a key future technology and funded accordingly. Chinese companies throughout the supply chain from catalysts to membranes and system integrators to end users are all driving fuel cell adoption leading China to become an international competitor.

Dude, since when did i say China did not invest in Fuel Cell technology??

Everybody can invest in Fuel cell technology, even Uganda, you have money and you will and can invest in fuel cell technology.

I merely say American do not focus on Renewable energy like China do, we go on a different path, when did i say your beloved China have no Fuel Cell technology? Because i do not say you do? Then i did not say you have fossil energy either, did you have petrol station overthere??

YOu are the laughable one, you don't even know what did i wrote, i though you were in the USA, how do you get such crap English??

 

[AirRodgers]

typo , 400 to 450 miles per tank
miles vary with the type of diving you do, as of last fill up, I avg around 32 mpg.. I get as much as 35 mpg doing my trip to Yellowstone when maintain the speed of 60 mph.

 

[jhungary]

The threads are there in your profile, but you don't want to click back and find them because you are a weasel.

It's pathetic to watch you try to weasel your way out of a debate

Next time, if you can't handle the heat, don't comment on the thread.

What pathetic is, all the post you write here calling me a weasel and what not, you could have type your question more than 3 or 4 times already, i would had already answer your question and move on

Yet, you still do not show me where is your question and what do you ask. And you are just keep calling me pathetic.

Dude, you do realise you can call me that without wasting me time by keep asking what did you ask right??

As i said, your last "Thread" on my alert were deleted and it brought me into an error page, so if you say it was still here, you shoud just copy me the link and i can check that out, otherwise we can both sit here with our thump up our *** and you call me a weasel and i call you a moron 

typo , 400 to 450 miles per tank

fair enough. I was like wow, where you get a car that goes 450 mile to a gallon??

 

[AirRodgers]

I can see stationary fuel cell (using natural gas)taking off in the US, with how cheap gas is because of Shale. In the area I live almost every house has gas lines, so the infrastructure is there for it to take off.

 

[kbd-raaf]

umm, that is because you are.

I will bet you any money i have even i told that guy you can get Electricity via chemical reaction, he will still challenge what i said  


lol your last question was deleted by Administrator, how am i suppose to answer that

Holy god lord. These guys are giving Chinese people in general a bad name.

 

[jhungary]

Holy god lord. These guys are giving Chinese people in general a bad name.

lol, their word not mine.

"Chinese is too big to care people think they are bad"