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China's collapse 'will bring economic crisis to climax in 2012'

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A looming hard landing in China will bring the financial and economic crisis of the past five years to a climax in 2012, one of the City of London's leading analysts has warned.

Albert Edwards, head of strategy at Société Générale and one of the UK's leading "bears", said the next 12 months would be the "final year of pain and disappointment".

Predicting a sharp slowdown in activity in the world's fastest-growing emerging economy, Edwards said: "There is a likelihood of a China hard landing this year. It is hard to think 2013 and onwards will be any worse than this year if China hard-lands."

Although China emerged rapidly from the downturn of 2008-09, Edwards said the recovery had been the result of a massive reflationary package by the Chinese government. Beijing, he added, could not afford another big stimulus to offset a weakening of the economy. Falling imports have led to a widening of China's trade surplus, but Edwards said exports were set to slow and a trade deficit was looming.

He added that despite the recent run of more upbeat economic news from the United States, the risk of another recession in the world's biggest economy was "very high". Growth had slowed to an annual rate of 1.5% in the second and third quarters of 2011, below the "stall speed" that historically led to recession. It was unlikely that the economy would muddle through, Edwards said.

China has grown by around 10% a year on average over the past two decades, making it the world's second-biggest economy, but the threat of a double-dip recession in the west, coupled with signs of over-heating in the Chinese property market, have caused some analysts to predict severe problems ahead.

Edwards's view was supported by the historian Edward Chancellor, who said China's recent economic performance conformed to the pattern of previous manias and bubbles in history. These included an uncritically assumed growth story, easy money and credit expansion, investment booms and the misallocation of capital, and conspicuous consumption.

The warning of fresh trouble ahead came as the World Economic Forum said rising youth unemployment, pressure on pensions and a growing gulf between rich and poor were sowing the "seeds of dystopia" that were putting at risk the gains from globalisation.

In its annual assessment of the outlook for the global economy before its meeting in Davos later this month, the WEF expressed concern at the possibility of economic and social upheaval caused by the inability of the young to find work and the dependency of elderly people on states deeply in debt.

"For the first time in generations, many people no longer believe that their children will grow up to enjoy a higher standard of living than theirs," said Lee Howell, the WEF managing director responsible for the report. "This new malaise is particularly acute in the industrialised countries that historically have been a source of great confidence and bold ideas."

The survey of 469 global experts identified chronic problems with government finances and severe income inequality as the most prevalent risks over the next decade.

"These risks in tandem threaten global growth as they are drivers of nationalism, populism and protectionism at a time when the world remains vulnerable to systemic financial shocks, as well as possible food and water crises," the report said.

The study said early hopes that closer global integration would inevitably lead to higher living standards for all were at risk of being dashed by trends that left large numbers of people fearful about the future.

"Individuals are increasingly being asked to bear risks previously assumed by governments and companies to obtain a secure retirement and access to quality healthcare. This report is a wake-up call to both the public and private sectors to come up with constructive ways to realign the expectations of an increasingly anxious global community," said John Drzik, chief executive of management consultants the Oliver Wyman Group .

The study said the policies and institutions of the 20th century no longer offered protection in a more complex and integrated global economy. "The weakness of existing safeguards is exposed by risks related to emerging technologies, financial interdependence, resource depletion and climate change, leaving society vulnerable."

It also warned that there was a "dark side of connectivity", with societies vulnerable to "malicious" and "devastating" cyber attacks.

"The Arab spring demonstrated the power of interconnected communications services to drive personal freedom, yet the same technology facilitated riots in London. Governments, societies and businesses need to better understand the interconnectivity of risk in today's technologies if we are truly to reap the benefits they offer," said Steve Wilson, chief risk officer for general insurance at Zurich.

China's collapse 'will bring economic crisis to climax in 2012' | Business | The Guardian
 
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They predicted China's collapse in 1989, 1998, 2004 and 2009. I trust their prediction as much as I trust weather forecast.
 
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US's recent economic performance conformed to the pattern of previous hyperinflations in history such as Zimbabwe and Weimar Germany. These included an uncritically assumed growth story, printing money without the products to back it up, consumption booms based on debt and the misallocation of capital.
 
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I personally never understand what it means by "collapse", does that just mean that a society doesn't produce/consume enough, or put in another word, don't waste enough resource? As long as you don't own too much money, what's wrong if a society, especially Asian countries, just live within its means? In this sense, probably Western countries are collapsing.
 
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I personally never understand what it means by "collapse", does that just mean that a society doesn't produce/consume enough, or put in another word, don't waste enough resource? As long as you don't own too much money, what's wrong if a society, especially Asian countries, just live within its means? In this sense, probably Western countries are collapsing.

economic collapse: severe slowdown in economic activity
financial collapse: country becomes insolvent due to too much debt
currency collapse: hyperinflation due to too much printed money for too little goods, which means that the value of time takes on short time variability and supply chains are disrupted by forcing the economy to revert to barter.

Even if China is heading for #1, that's not fatal. #3 is fatal, and guess who has been printing too much money and manufacturing too little?
 
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They predicted China's collapse in 1989, 1998, 2004 and 2009. I trust their prediction as much as I trust weather forecast.

Are you serious? :cheesy: Weather forecast are based on science.
 
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economic collapse: severe slowdown in economic activity
financial collapse: country becomes insolvent due to too much debt
currency collapse: hyperinflation due to too much printed money for too little goods, which means that the value of time takes on short time variability and supply chains are disrupted by forcing the economy to revert to barter.

Even if China is heading for #1, that's not fatal. #3 is fatal, and guess who has been printing too much money and manufacturing too little?

Exactly, #2 and #3 are the real troubles. As to "slow economic activity", it just means that I am not able to buy a TV to put in my restroom, after my basic needs are satisfied. What's the big deal? In China sure some jobs are lost and a lot of people go back to countryside to live a life they are used to, but collapsing? Chinese economy didn't collapse during cultural revolution, why now?
 
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economic collapse: severe slowdown in economic activity
financial collapse: country becomes insolvent due to too much debt
currency collapse: hyperinflation due to too much printed money for too little goods, which means that the value of time takes on short time variability and supply chains are disrupted by forcing the economy to revert to barter.

Even if China is heading for #1, that's not fatal. #3 is fatal, and guess who has been printing too much money and manufacturing too little?

but don't you think since the dollar is the base money they have the unwarranted right to go on a printing spree. hence, currency collapse dud never come for USA until dollar is no more the base currency.
 
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City of London's leading analysts has warned.

These moron could not predict their own economic collapse and yet they consider themselves higher than thou to forecast China's doom and gloom!
 
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but don't you think since the dollar is the base money they have the unwarranted right to go on a printing spree. hence, currency collapse dud never come for USA until dollar is no more the base currency.

No country can print currency it uses itself freely. It will de-value the $ that leads to major inflation in US itself. In addition, it hurts US credit.
 
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No country can print currency it uses itself freely. It will de-value the $ that leads to major inflation in US itself. In addition, it hurts US credit.

devalue the dollar against what? dollar? when denominator is same as numerator, result is always one.....doesnt matter how much you increase the value.
 
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No country can print currency it uses itself freely. It will de-value the $ that leads to major inflation in US itself. In addition, it hurts US credit.
You mean like this...

China's Money-Printing Addiction Could Spell Disaster - Business Insider
“In the past 30 years, we have used excessive money supply to rapidly advance our economy,” said Wu Xiaoling, vice chairman of the Financial and Economic Affairs Committee of China’s National People’s Congress.

China has not only been the country that prints money at the fastest rate but also been the country with the largest money supply in the world in the past decade, according to the Chinese-language Southern Weekly.

China struggling to print enough yuan notes
(AFP) – Jan 11, 2011

BEIJING — China has the world's largest money printing operation but still fails to meet demand for yuan, a central bank official said, amid rampant lending and a flood of foreign exchange into the country.

The remarks by vice governor Ma Delun, posted on the central bank website Tuesday, highlight the challenges facing Beijing as it tries to control the value of its currency and reduce the volume of money flowing into the economy.

China employs more than 30,000 people to print money and offers them incentives to work extra hours to ensure there is enough yuan in circulation to match demand, which is growing by 20 percent a year, Ma said.

But it is not enough.

"The growth of yuan production capacity has failed to keep up with the pace of demand," he said, adding that the central bank was also struggling to crack down on the increasingly sophisticated production of fake notes.

He gave no other details.

China had 4.23 trillion yuan ($640 billion) in circulation -- excluding bank deposits -- at the end of November, up nearly 80 percent from the 2.4 trillion yuan washing around the economy at the end of 2005, he said.

That expansion in money supply coincided with surging demand for Chinese exports, growing foreign direct investment and massive government spending and bank lending during the global financial crisis.

Foreign currencies entering China are snapped up by the central bank in return for yuan, enabling authorities to control the value of the local unit.

The practice -- criticised by trade partners for grossly undervaluing the currency -- adds to China's world-beating foreign exchange stockpile and increases the amount of yuan in the domestic economy, fuelling inflation.

Rather than let the yuan trade freely against the dollar, China has adopted other measures to stem the flood of liquidity into the economy which has pushed inflation to the highest level in more than two years.

The central bank in December raised interest rates for the second time in less than three months and has ordered banks to keep more money in reserve, effectively limiting the amount they can lend.
 
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Exactly, #2 and #3 are the real troubles. As to "slow economic activity", it just means that I am not able to buy a TV to put in my restroom, after my basic needs are satisfied. What's the big deal? In China sure some jobs are lost and a lot of people go back to countryside to live a life they are used to, but collapsing? Chinese economy didn't collapse during cultural revolution, why now?
Just as what I have said in this forum,total agree.
Are you serious? :cheesy: Weather forecast are based on science.
Not the weather forecast for mountain climbing but the lame forcast on TV(I mean Chinese TV).
 
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devalue the dollar against what? dollar? when denominator is same as numerator, result is always one.....doesnt matter how much you increase the value.

real products.

Zimbabwe's hyperinflation was not defined by devaluation vs. the dollar but by devaluation vs. goods.

In China, we say the money is inflating even as it has appreciated 30% vs. the USD. Why? Because the USD is also depreciating, just 30% faster than the RMB is. All fiat currencies are depreciating, which is why gold and silver are skyrocketing and food is skyrocketing.

the purchasing power of gold has been constant throughout history btw.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 AM ----------


There is robust demand for RMB from consumers and investors in China.

There is little demand for 3 trillion extra in USD except from the Fed itself to buy its own T-bonds.
 
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