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China thinks it can defeat America in battle

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First of all, this article has nothing to do with the poll that you are talking about.
Obviously in your rush to troll and insult, you didn't bother to notice the date of this article, which is from last year.

So, I request that @Hu Songshan , @Horus , @WebMaster sanction @TaiShang for his flaming insults and absolutely lack of ethics, these type of people should not be allowed to participate in this forum.

I also expect that moderators will demand an apology from @TaiShang.

This episode is so clear cut that if no action is taking by the moderators, then it would be clear to all that there is a bias in this forum in favor of chinese members and the credibility of PDF is at stake.

Apologies? Dictating ultimatums to the the mods? Aren't you a drama queen :lol:

There's nothing to substantiate your claim of an "absolute lack of ethics", or that "flaming insults" were made. The most antagonistic thing he said was to call you a "flame-seeking liar". And the first part is true: posting a year old article when it has already been posted in multiple threads (and very poorly received) is a provocative, flame-baiting approach. But more seriously, being disrespectful of China's territorial integrity is more than just flame-seeking, it's a deeply sinful stance to take. Are you an observant and God-fearing Catholic? If so, you should be familiar with Jesus' proverb:

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

By refusing and blaspheming against China's [Caesar] territorial sovereignty, you are committing an offense in the eyes of God. And you have done so repeatedly on this forum.
 
The OP title "China thinks" is as truthful as Viets taking over global innovation. There is no evidence in the article to prove that "China thinks" this or that way.

The truth is that there was a public poll released few days back which revealed that majority of those the question asked believes that China can beat the US on its own turf in the event of a war.

The poll does not say "China thinks," much less "the Chinese government thinks"

In this respect, the OP is misleading by posting misleading news. That's rather low from ethical standards.

Thus, I request sirs @Hu Songshan , @Horus , @WebMaster to kindly take action against the insincere OP who spread false information without any concrete basis. Anybody can sweep through the internet and find crazy links.

The OP is a flame-seeking liar.
First of all, this article has nothing to do with the poll that you are talking about.
Obviously in your rush to troll and insult, you didn't bother to notice the date of this article, which is from last year.

So, I request that @Hu Songshan , @Horus , @WebMaster sanction @TaiShang for his flaming insults and absolutely lack of ethics, these type of people should not be allowed to participate in this forum.

I also expect that moderators will demand an apology from @TaiShang.

This episode is so clear cut that if no action is taking by the moderators, then it would be clear to all that there is a bias in this forum in favor of chinese members and the credibility of PDF is at stake.



Thank you for noticing. Some people obviously can't contain their urge to troll, insult and lie.

Guys guys lets calm down a bit. We are brothers here.

Let us keep in mind that in a discussion or debate, we are mostly trying to debate about opinions or ideas. If it is a concrete fact like "1+1=2" that we are dealing with, then there's not much we can debate about. So keep that in mind and lets respect everyone's opinions and ideas.

For my dear @TaiShang, let me remind you that a lot of your anti-US threads are also based on articles that expresses nothing more than the opinions and insinuations of the authors. They are not based on concrete evidences and facts that everyone would agree with. Let me give some examples of those anti-US threads of yours:

US interference in Thailand leaves country in mess and hinders change

U.S. Childish Paranoia Only Weakens Ties with China

https://defence.pk/threads/presiden...ational-security”-seeks-regime-change.363766/

I think a lot of Americans will find these threads as insulting and nothing more than flame-bait insinuations. However, the fact that these kind of threads, including this thread created by @Carlosa, has claims that not everyone would agree with, will allow people to participate and give their own comments.

@WebMaster, @Horus, I think this Far East section is really getting out of hand and something must be done (you can have a quick browse and see for yourself). The quality has gone way down with members (Chinese and non-chinese) getting overwhelmed and resorting to personal insults and lies. I recommend we have a second mod working with @Hu Songshan since that poor guy said he is busy and can't always be here 24/7. I also suggest this because a lot of members (non-Chinese) has openly said that they are experiencing biased dealings in this section. Having two fulltime mods will restore their confidence and give us no reason to say moderation is bias.
 
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Apologies? Dictating ultimatums to the the mods? Aren't you a drama queen :lol:

There's nothing to substantiate your claim of an "absolute lack of ethics", or that "flaming insults" were made. The most antagonistic thing he said was to call you a "flame-seeking liar". And the first part is true: posting a year old article when it has already been posted in multiple threads (and very poorly received) is a provocative, flame-baiting approach. But more seriously, being disrespectful of China's territorial integrity is more than just flame-seeking, it's a deeply sinful stance to take. Are you an observant and God-fearing Catholic? If so, you should be familiar with Jesus' proverb:

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

By refusing and blaspheming against China's [Caesar] territorial sovereignty, you are committing an offense in the eyes of God. And you have done so repeatedly on this forum.

That would be for the mods to decide, not you.

There is nothing against posting an old article if the subject is still relevant, are you saying the subject is not relevant today, then explain why?

Calling someone flaming liar is insulting and show lack of ethics since that behaviour is against forum rules, or are you saying that is not?

Care to explain who has being disrespectful of China's territorial integrity? I fail to see that.

Guys guys lets calm down a bit. We are brothers here.

Let us keep in mind that in a discussion or debate, we are mostly trying to debate about opinions or ideas. If it is a concrete fact like "1+1=2" that we are dealing with, then there's not much we can debate about. So keep that in mind and lets respect everyone's opinions and ideas.

For my dear @TaiShang, let me remind you that a lot of your anti-US threads are also based on articles that expresses nothing more than the opinions and insinuations of the authors. They are not based on concrete evidences and facts that everyone would agree with. Let me give some examples of those anti-US threads of yours:

US interference in Thailand leaves country in mess and hinders change

U.S. Childish Paranoia Only Weakens Ties with China

https://defence.pk/threads/presiden...ational-security”-seeks-regime-change.363766/

The fact that these kind of threads, including this thread created by @Carlosa, has claims that not everyone would agree with, will allow people to participate and give their own comments.

@WebMaster, @Horus, I think this Far East section is really getting out of hand and something must be done. The quality has gone down with members (Chinese and non-chinese) getting overwhelmed and resorting to personal insults and lies. I recommend we have a second mod working with @Hu Songshan since that poor guy said he is busy and can't always be here 24/7. I also suggest this because a lot of members (non-Chinese) has openly said that they are experiencing biased dealings in this dealings. Having two mods will restore their confidence.

Thank you for exposing @TaiShang double standards and for bringing up a fact that we all know here, Chinese moderators seem to have a very strong bias in favor of the chinese members which is what bring us over and over into this type of situation. When a particular type of people have a license to troll and insult, the forum can only get worse and worse as we keep seeing. If there is no bias in the moderation then we have to ask why certain members get away with anything and others get banned for very little things.

I'd like to point out that the article I posted is of a purely military nature (I believe this is a military forum, right?) and has excellent value to discuss in a military forum.

@WebMaster, @Horus I hope you take a note of this.

This thread had being going ok for the most part, we were doing good discussion of ASW warfare, etc, only had a few off topic comments and then the thread got derailed by the flaming of Taishang. Something that we see only way too often.

In the ignore list, that's the best feature of this forum. Where's private messaging?
You shoud read this work for understand more

Bo Yang

Going to the inbox, I only see how to reply to a pm, I don't see anything about initiating a pm.
 
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Chinese moderators have a very strong bias in favor of the chinese members which is what bring us over and over into this type of situation. When a particular type of people have a license to troll and insult, the forum can only get worse and worse as we keep seeing.

There is only one Chinese mod here, I often tag some other mods to come and deal with things in here but they are also mostly busy. I also used to think @Hu Songshan is biased but I now give him the benefit of a doubt. I no longer judge him whether he is bias or not because I don't know what he is goin through as a mod. And he is doing mod for free.
After all no one works on PDF fulltime, we all have our real life to deal with. That's why I recommend 2 fulltime mods for this section.

Yes, it seems like some people act like they have a license to troll. A heavy hand in modding and issuing warning to EVERYONE, no matter what race or creed, will hopefully get rid of the petty insults from both sides and restore the quality discussions.

Look at me, I was issued a heavy ban just recently. Now I'm back and become a changed man. I once sometime troll before the ban but now I feel that temptation to troll is disgusting.
 
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There is only one Chinese mod here, I often tag some other mods to come and deal with things in here but they are also mostly busy. I also used to think @Hu Songshan is biased but I now give him the benefit of a doubt.
After all no one works on PDF fulltime, we all have our real life to deal with. That's why I recommend 2 fulltime mods for this section.

Yes, it seems like some people act like they have a license to troll. A heavy hand in modding and issuing warning to EVERYONE, no matter what race or creed, will hopefully get rid of the petty insults from both sides and restore the quality discussions.

Look at me, I was issued a heavy ban just recently. Now I'm back and become a changed man. I once sometime troll before the ban but now I feel that temptation to troll is disgusting.

Thank you Pal, you are very right and I appreciate your comments. Lets hope that this forum gets cleaned up.
 
Once again, a military analyst from nowhere comments nonsense on a so-called 'belief' of pla from nowhere. that's how most such news are produced.
 
The whole article is just a piece of imagination of all the Americans spreading fear across to the bigots and the feeble minded on Capitol Hill and to the media so as to justify their military expansion, political intervention and setting up economic roadblocks

PLA leadership does the same. No military leadership is different from the others in this respect. It is the generals' and admirals' job to think up scenarios where their country might have to enter a war, but unlike the politicians, they have the double burden of how to win said war. As such, much of their thinking engages the 'worst case' scenarios in order to get as much funding for their services as possible. Look at your own PLA and see American signatures all over, everything from uniform to tactics to even how your aircraft carrier deck hands trains.
 
PLA leadership does the same. No military leadership is different from the others in this respect. It is the generals' and admirals' job to think up scenarios where their country might have to enter a war, but unlike the politicians, they have the double burden of how to win said war. As such, much of their thinking engages the 'worst case' scenarios in order to get as much funding for their services as possible. Look at your own PLA and see American signatures all over, everything from uniform to tactics to even how your aircraft carrier deck hands trains.

I have stated I am not interested in discussion of this thread here PERIOD
 
Once again, a military analyst from nowhere comments nonsense on a so-called 'belief' of pla from nowhere. that's how most such news are produced.

Any member here that does not agree with the facts presented by the article, its free to enter the discussion and try to explain why the analyst that wrote the article is wrong. That's exactly what @Genesis did and we got into a nice discussion about the military merits of the article, but regrettably most Chinese members don't seem to have enough knowledge to refute the facts presented in the article and in their impotence, they resort to trolling.

If on the other hand, if this were to be an article that praises the PLA, no matter who wrote it, you would see exactly the opposite behavior.
 
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China thinks it can defeat America in battle

David Axe

July 7, 2014
China thinks it can defeat America in battle

The bad news first. The People's Republic of China now believes it can successfully prevent the United States from intervening in the event of a Chinese invasion of Taiwan or some other military assault by Beijing.

Now the good news. China is wrong — and for one major reason. It apparently disregards the decisive power of America's nuclear-powered submarines.

Moreover, for economic and demographic reasons Beijing has a narrow historical window in which to use its military to alter the world's power structure. If China doesn't make a major military move in the next couple decades, it probably never will.

The U.S. Navy's submarines — the unsung main defenders of the current world order — must hold the line against China for another 20 years. After that, America can declare a sort of quiet victory in the increasingly chilly Cold War with China.

How China wins

The bad news came from Lee Fuell, from the U.S. Air Force's National Air and Space Intelligence Center, during Fuell's testimony before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission in Washington, D.C. on Jan. 30.

For years, Chinese military planning assumed that any attack by the People's Liberation Army on Taiwan or a disputed island would have to begin with a Pearl Harbor-style preemptive missile strike by China against U.S. forces in Japan and Guam. The PLA was so afraid of overwhelming American intervention that it genuinely believed it could not win unless the Americans were removed from the battlefield before the main campaign even began.

A preemptive strike was, needless to say, a highly risky proposition. If it worked, the PLA just might secure enough space and time to defeat defending troops, seize territory, and position itself for a favorable post-war settlement.

But if China failed to disable American forces with a surprise attack, Beijing could find itself fighting a full-scale war on at least two fronts: against the country it was invading plus the full might of U.S. Pacific Command, fully mobilized and probably strongly backed by the rest of the world.

That was then. But after two decades of sustained military modernization, the Chinese military has fundamentally changed its strategy in just the last year or so. According to Fuell, recent writings by PLA officers indicate "a growing confidence within the PLA that they can more-readily withstand U.S. involvement."

The preemptive strike is off the table — and with it, the risk of a full-scale American counterattack. Instead, Beijing believes it can attack Taiwan or another neighbor while also bloodlessly deterring U.S. intervention. It would do so by deploying such overwhelmingly strong military forces — ballistic missiles, aircraft carriers, jet fighters, and the like — that Washington dare not get involved.

The knock-on effects of deterring America could be world-changing. "Backing away from our commitments to protect Taiwan, Japan, or the Philippines would be tantamount to ceding East Asia to China's domination," Roger Cliff, a fellow at the Atlantic Council, said at the same U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission hearing on Jan. 30.

Worse, the world's liberal economic order — and indeed, the whole notion of democracy — could suffer irreparable harm. "The United States has both a moral and a material interest in a world in which democratic nations can survive and thrive," Cliff asserted.

Fortunately for that liberal order, America possesses by far the world's most powerful submarine force — one poised to quickly sink any Chinese invasion fleet. In announcing its readiness to hold off the U.S. military, the PLA seems to have ignored Washington's huge undersea advantage.



USsubEmbed1.jpg

(Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Adam K. Thomas/U.S. Navy via Getty Images)


The Silent Service

It's not surprising that Beijing would overlook America's subs. MostAmericans overlook their own undersea fleet — and that's not entirely their own fault. The U.S. sub force takes pains to avoid media coverage in order to maximize its secrecy and stealth. "The submarine cruises the world's oceans unseen," the Navy stated on its Website.

Unseen and unheard. That why the sub force calls itself the "Silent Service."

The Navy has 74 submarines, 60 of which are attack or missile submarines optimized for finding and sinking other ships or blasting land targets. The balance is ballistic-missile boats that carry nuclear missiles and would not routinely participate in military campaigns short of an atomic World War III.

Thirty-three of the attack and missile boats belong to the Pacific Fleet, with major bases in Washington State, California, Hawaii, and Guam. Deploying for six months or so roughly every year and a half, America's Pacific subs frequently stop over in Japan and South Korea and occasionally even venture under the Arctic ice.

According to Adm. Cecil Haney, the former commander of Pacific Fleet subs, on any given day 17 boats are underway and eight are "forward-deployed," meaning they are on station in a potential combat zone. To the Pacific Fleet, that pretty much means waters near China.

America has several submarine types. The numerous Los Angeles-class attack boats are Cold War stalwarts that are steadily being replaced by newer Virginia-class boats with improved stealth and sensors. The secretiveSeawolfs, numbering just three — all of them in the Pacific — are big, fast, and more heavily armed than other subs. The Ohio-class missile submarines are former ballistic missile boats each packing 154 cruise missile.

U.S. subs are, on average, bigger, faster, quieter, and more powerful than the rest of the world's subs. And there are more of them. The U.K. is building just seven new Astute attack boats. Russia aims to maintainaround 12 modern attack subs. China is struggling to deploy a handful of rudimentary nuclear boats.

Able to lurk silently under the waves and strike suddenly with torpedoes and missiles, submarines have tactical and strategic effect greatly disproportionate to their relatively small numbers. During the 1982 Falklands War, the British sub Conqueror torpedoed and sank theArgentine cruiser General Belgrano, killing 323 men. The sinking kept the rest of the Argentine fleet bottled up for the duration of the conflict.

America's eight-at-a-time submarine picket in or near Chinese waters could be equally destructive to Chinese military plans, especially considering the PLA's limited anti-submarine skills. "Although China might control the surface of the sea around Taiwan, its ability to find and sink U.S. submarines will be extremely limited for the foreseeable future," Cliff testified. "Those submarines would likely be able to intercept and sink Chinese amphibious transports as they transited toward Taiwan."

So it almost doesn't matter that a modernized PLA thinks it possesses the means to fight America above the waves, on land, and in the air. If it can't safely sail an invasion fleet as part of its territorial ambitions, it can't achieve its strategic goals — capturing Taiwan and or some island also claimed by a neighboring country — through overtly military means.

That reality should inform Washington's own strategy. As the United States has already largely achieved the world order it struggled for over the last century, it need only preserve and defend this order. In other words, America has the strategic high ground against China, as the latter mustattack and alter the world in order to get what it wants.

In practical military terms, that means the Pentagon can more or less ignore most of China's military capabilities, including those that appear to threaten traditional U.S. advantages in nukes, air warfare, mechanized ground operations, and surface naval maneuvers.

"We won't invade China, so ground forces don't play," pointed out Wayne Hughes, a professor at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. "We won't conduct a first nuclear strike. We should not adopt an air-sea strike plan against the mainland, because that is a sure way to start World War IV."

Rather, America must deny the Chinese free access to their near waters. "We need only enough access to threaten a war at sea," Hughes said. In his view, a fleet optimized for countering China would have large numbers of small surface ships for enforcing a trade blockade. But the main combatants would be submarines, "to threaten destruction of all Chinese warships and commercial vessels in the China Seas."

Cliff estimated that in wartime, each American submarine would be able to get off "a few torpedo shots" before needing to "withdraw for self-preservation." But assuming eight subs each fire three torpedoes, and just half those torpedoes hit, the American attack boats could destroy all of China's major amphibious ships — and with them, Beijing's capacity for invading Taiwan or seizing a disputed island.

Waiting out the Chinese decline

If American subs can hold the line for another 20 years, China might age right out of its current, aggressive posture without ever having attacked anyone. That's because economic and demographic trends in China point towards a rapidly aging population, flattening economic growth, and fewer resources available for military modernization.

To be fair, almost all developed countries are also experiencing this aging, slowing and increasing peacefulness. But China's trends are pronounced owing to a particularly steep drop in the birth rate traceable back to the Chinese Communist Party's one-child policy.

Another factor is the unusual speed with which the Chinese economy has expanded to its true potential, thanks to the focused investment made possible by an authoritarian government… and also thanks to that government's utter disregard for the natural environment and for the rights of everyday Chinese people.

"The economic model that propelled China through three decades of meteoric growth appears unsustainable," Andrew Erickson, a Naval War College analyst, told the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission.

What Erickson described as China's "pent-up national potential" could begin expiring as early as 2030, by which point "China will have world's highest proportion of people over 65," he predicted. "An aging society with rising expectations, burdened with rates of chronic diseases exacerbated by sedentary lifestyles, will probably divert spending from both military development and the economic growth that sustains it."

Wisely, American political and military leaders have made the investments necessary to sustain U.S. undersea power for at least that long. After a worrying dip in submarine production, starting in 2012 the Pentagon asked for — and Congress funded — the acquisition of two Virginia-class submarines per year for around $2.5 billion apiece, a purchase rate adequate to maintain the world's biggest nuclear submarine fleet indefinitely.

The Pentagon is also improving the Virginia design, adding undersea-launched drones, extra missile capacity, and potentially a new anti-ship missile.

Given China's place in the world, its underlying national trends and America's pointed advantage in just that aspect of military power that's especially damaging to Chinese plans, it seems optimistic for PLA officers to assume they can launch an attack on China's neighbors without first knocking out U.S. forces.

Not that a preemptive strike would make any difference, as the only American forces that truly matter for containing China are the very ones that China cannot reach.

For they are deep underwater.
China lacks in Air Force as for Navy in next 5 years they will match up with current production rate but for Air Force its still is 10 years away
 
For my dear @TaiShang, let me remind you that a lot of your anti-US threads are also based on articles that expresses nothing more than the opinions and insinuations of the authors. They are not based on concrete evidences and facts that everyone would agree with. Let me give some examples of those anti-US threads of yours:

US interference in Thailand leaves country in mess and hinders change

U.S. Childish Paranoia Only Weakens Ties with China

https://defence.pk/threads/presiden...ational-security”-seeks-regime-change.363766/

I think a lot of Americans will find these threads as insulting and nothing more than flame-bait insinuations. However, the fact that these kind of threads, including this thread created by @Carlosa, has claims that not everyone would agree with, will allow people to participate and give their own comments.


:agree: :tup::tup::tup:
 
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