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China spends 1.4% of GDP on defense

You speak withought knowledge or understanding of the budgetary process in democratic countries. Though they are conceived and implemented in different ways, one underlying principle always remains the same i.e they are TRANSPERENT. which is simply not the case with China. The Chineese people have simply no knowledge or control on how their hard earned money is spent. While in a democracy people have control and can question the government of the day about its financial prudence.

Budgets in democratic countries have clear statements mentioning what the money is for and where it is to be spent. There is also a provision for a rgulating authority which checks if the money is being spent according to the wishes of the Parliament/Congress. Such provisions and mechanisms simply do not exist in China.

As for your guess that money from scientific research is diverted is pure hogwash. In India scientific research both civilian and defence has seperate allocations and there is nothing to hide. What is spent on defence reserach is clearly published in the budget, no diversion takes place. Your allegation only eminates form the lack of understanding of how the budgetary process workes in a democracy.

Just because a certain amount of money is spent on the military does not mean that the money is used properly. The United States is a good example of this, just because they spend 600 billion on military does not mean that they have a 600 billion army.

The pentagon buys $2.98 hammers that you can get at walmart, they pay $100 each for these. They buy toilet seats for $600, coffee machine for $10,000. Millions also go missing in the US treasury every year.

My point is that money can be funneled, the money spent buying the $100 hammer could have been funneled into some other project or into somebody's pocket.

Estimate $3.3 Trillion Missing From U.S. Treasury

Estimate $3.3 Trillion
Missing From U.S. Treasury


Yes, Virginia, A $2.98 Hammer REALLY Costs Our Government $100 - Scragged


Yes, Virginia, A $2.98 Hammer REALLY Costs Our Government $100



When criticizing government plans to take over health care on the spurious basis that government control will make it more efficient, Scragged has often referred to the government paying $100 for a $2.98 hammer or $600 for an ordinary toilet seat. It occurred to us that some of our readers wouldn't have read about these matters - after all, it's been years since the Lamestream Media spoke in such vivid terms about government waste. Given their dislike of the Bush administration and the way the public reacted so eagerly to their earlier stories about $100 hammers, they'd have written up such incidents if they'd found any.

We thought it might be worthwhile to explain how $100 hammers came about and what happened to them.

ing a $2.98 Hammer for $100

I worked for a conglomerate called Gould way back in the 1980s. The boss' name had far too many y's and z's for me to pronounce it with confidence, so I called him "Chairman Bill." Mao tze Tung had added so much glory to the title "Chairman" that everybody knew I meant the Chairman of the Board. Chairman Bill was a skilled deal maker; he bought and sold divisions more often than lesser beings buy and cars.

Shortly after he bought a division which made good profits from government contracts, the media reported that his division had been paid more than $100 for a hammer which could be bought in a hardware store for $2.98. It wasn't as bad as the $600 toilet seat or the $3,000 coffee maker which were in the news at the time, but Chairman Bill's golf buddies teased him unmercifully about how they, too, could show as much profit as he did if only they, too, could charge $100 for a $2.98 hammer. "Nice work if you can get it," as the saying goes.

Their ribbing eventually got under his skin. Chairman Bill summoned his accounting firm and told them, "I don't care what it costs. If we robbed the government, I want to know. If we didn't rob the government, I want you to sign a formal accountant's letter saying we didn't cheat the government."

Having heard the magic words, "I don't care what it costs," the accountants swarmed into the military products division like Sherman marching through Georgia.

Accountants don't often use words like "shock," "amaze," or "astound," but they made it clear that they were quite surprised by government-required accounting principles. They found more than 20 cost categories associated with the hammer - marketing, travel, training, cleaning, general administration, facilities, and other overhead items that were allocated to the hammer by formulas defined in the contract.

The smallest line item I remember was about $.23, the biggest was $4.50 or so, but these items added up to precisely the price the government had been charged. Since military contract boilerplate said that the accounting principles called for in the contract were matters of law, it would have been against the law to charge a penny less.

How Did We Get There?

We all know that government processes can be completely bizarre, but how did procurement regulations get so messed up that a $2.98 hammer could end up costing the government $100?

Like all things governmental, it got that way one foul-up at a time.

Bureaucrats hate being embarrassed nearly as much as they hate having their budgets cut. Thus, whenever anything embarrasses a bureaucracy, the first response is to write more rules so it won't happen again.

Government procurement goes back a long, long way. The earliest detailed account of the terms and conditions of a public solicitation to enter into a contract between a government and an individual defense contractor of which I'm aware was when David was contracted by King Saul to slay Goliath in return for being able to marry the king's daughter and have his family freed from tax obligations for a while (I Samuel 17:23-26). When we read on, we find out that even though David performed expeditiously per the terms of the contract exactly as stated, he didn't get to marry the princess until he'd fulfilled another extra-contractual (and equally risky) solicitation some years later (I Samuel 18:25-27).

Even though "the people" were well aware of the terms and conditions of the government's contract with David, nobody was surprised when he didn't get paid. One suspects that government chicanery and perfidy are as old as government itself.

Firm-Fixed Price Procurement

Over the centuries, bureaucrats have learned to write more and more regulations telling how contracts are to be performed, managed, and billed. David's contract was "firm fixed-price." What David was supposed to do, namely, slay the giant single-handed, was well defined. What he was to receive was equally clear: the princess' hand in marriage and a tax holiday for his family. There were no bonuses for exceptional performance, no penalties for late performance, no progress reports, no partial payment, no forms to fill out, just slay the giant and get paid. And in case of failure, the government was not obligated to pay anything at all.

Only David did slay the giant, but didn't get paid.

Fixed-price contracting makes sense for building roads and bridges where contractors have enough prior experience to know how much the job will cost. There's room for chicanery when a contractor can make a deal with an inspector who'll let him supply substandard, and therefore cheaper, cement. We've seen this sort of thing in New York City recently and it's said that some of the wire used for the Brooklyn Bridge was substandard, but fixed-price procurement works, sort of, for things we know how to do.

What happens when a President says, "Man on the moon by the end of the decade," which nobody's done before? Nobody has a clue how to do any of it, so how can anyone submit a fixed-price bid?

Cost-Plus Contracting

Enter the "cost-plus" contract. The government hires, say, Boeing, to build something exotic like a centrifuge to train astronauts how to deal with acceleration when rockets lift off. A "cost-plus" contract says the government will pay Boeing whatever it costs Boeing to build the centrifuge, plus something extra for their pains.

You're a section manager on the contract. You think it would improve productivity and thereby save the government money if your group could have a two-week off-site meeting in, say, Tahiti. If your accountants think they can charge the government for the trip, why not? It makes the troops happy at no cost. It's even better if the contract is "cost plus incentive fee" where the company not only gets paid its costs, it gets paid a percentage of those costs as profit. Going to Tahiti makes more money for the company! What a no-brainer!

Up to a point, bureaucrats go along because the more money they spend the more they can ask for next year. When the newspapers start whining about junkets, however, they have to change the rules. That's why there are yards and yards of fine print about what you can and can't charge to a government contract - every time a contractor figures out a new way to stick it to the government, the government comes back with more fine print.

It's All in the Allocation

That's how we got to $100 hammers. When regulations specify what can be charged to the government, contractors do their best to load up those cost categories so they'll be reimbursed. They're pretty good at it, too, it takes real skill and golden-tongued eloquence to argue that it's legitimate to allocate nearly $100 worth of overhead and other costs to a hammer which cost $2.98. The overhead is nearly 30 times the actual cost! What does that tell you about how government procurement really works?

What happened? Why haven't we heard about $100 hammers recently? Did the bureaucracy tighten things up enough that the government can buy a $2.98 hammer for $2.98? Of course not, cutting costs would reduce budgets and we can't have that.

The solution, of course, is to change the allocation formula so that costs are allocated disproportionately to large items. We the People still pay $100 for $2.98 hammers, but the accounting regulations make hammer-related overhead charges instead appear next to some other item so that the hammer doesn't seem so expensive. How do you the voter really know the difference between a $200 million fighter jet vs. one that's only $100 million? One reason military equipment is so expensive is that each big item carries the overhead which should rightfully be allocated to smaller items. Honest allocations get the bureaucracy criticized, however, so they changed the accounting system to hide the costs.

We see the same sort of allocation chicanery in the way the House of Representatives and the Senate account for travel costs. Rep. Pelosi travels to and from her California district each week in a large plane which can make the trip without having to stop. This costs several hundred thousand dollars per week and generates huge amounts of carbon, but the cost doesn't show up on the House travel budget. Mrs. Pelosi commandeers a military jet, so the cost of her travel is buried in the billions spent defending the country.
 
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What ticked you off. My staright question about Hu or the lack of accountability of your government??

Well aren't you the eager beaver that jumped all over the non-indian related thread in WA just because it used an Indian newspaper as a source? I mean serious instant troll label there, imagining slights coming from all sides, so quick to defend India all chest out and indignant.

The funniest thing is that you think the Presidents electricity bill or similar deductables is what makes up a significant portion of a normal nation’s budget.

Wake up this is not 1990, licence raj & red tape are long gone, hate to shatter you illusions though.

It is silly to think that these entrenched traditions are completely gone and that India is a friendlier place for bussiness than oohh say China.

Link - Untitled

dude the allegations you level have been brought to light by the free Indian press. Free the press in China and see how many skeletons tumble out of the closet, India will simply fade in comparison.

Even with restrictions there is lot of hoopla about corruption in China, the womanising by Chinese officials and the landsharks and real estate developers pushing poor farmers out of their property in colloberation with local officials, currupt judges, i could go on and on...

That’s exactly it, isn't it? India is good at reading about it and China is good at doing something about it. The list you mentioned, everyone of them have markedly improved due to government and popular focus facilitated by free internet bulltin boards (ie BBS, Twitter etc).

Besides didn’t it occur to you that if you know about these problems, that it proves the system is more open than you’d like to admit? Or are you going to pretend to have privileged knowledge because of your "freedom" in india?


Pls provide a link for the above rankings.
Google is your friend and Chauism was even nice enough to look it up for you.

Look at the discussion carefully. When was it about corruption?? I was talking about transperency and accountability. You want to talk about corruption open another thread. I dont see you countering me on the points raised or do you think that you are on weak ground.
See mike’s post.


I don't usually entertain trolls but I just couldn't help myself this time.
 
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u need to thoroughly read the corruption index...

The corruption index is meaningless, it is just a survey on how the citizens perceive their government. It does not chart actual government corruption.

The only way to chart corruption is to look at the end results.

If you give somebody $100 to buy 100 bagels and they come back with 20 bagels then thats means that corruption has happened.

China gets many bagels for the $100 they are given as can be seen by all the infrastructure that China has built.
 
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u need to thoroughly read the corruption index...

Oh, I did as I thoroughly read its methodology of composing the index.


If you have any questions here is Global Corruption Report too, you can download and read it thoroughly.
Global Corruption Report 2009

Also here is the report from UN for India's budget accountability of government budget.
The legislature comes into the budget picture only after it has been presented in Parliament. It has less than three months to discuss and pass the budget. The volume of proposals and policies involved do not allow adequate time to discuss the budget in any depth. Also of concern are parliamentary competence to understand the complexity of the accounting issues and program overview to enable any meaningful oversight.

The budget process (i.e., the process of budget preparation, presentation before the legislature, legalization and periodic review) and budget policies (i.e., the socioeconomic policies adhered to by the government in deciding the priorities in the budget) do not come under substantial public scrutiny. The budget presentation and consequent legislation is recorded and reported and available to the public.


During the budget-preparation phase, until the budget is presented before Parliament, only a handful of entities are involved in the budget proposals and the policy priorities driving those proposals:
the chief economic advisor of the Reserve Bank of India (the central bank of the country); various parliamentary standing committees, which look into the expenditures of different ministries and their demands; certain government-funded research institutions and the Ministry of Finance.

Conclusion: Citizens have no access to the budget process.
Transparency and accountability of government budget in India
 
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It would be of no surprise to me if the China's defence spending is larger than official figure, considering the threats they face and the land and coastline they have to defend,so why discuss about it?
 
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1.4 is understated; 2.2 as per SIPRI is more sound.

And please, don't place India beside any Western democracy; the 2 are inheritedly different.
 
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You speak withought knowledge or understanding of the budgetary process in democratic countries. Though they are conceived and implemented in different ways, one underlying principle always remains the same i.e they are TRANSPERENT. which is simply not the case with China. The Chineese people have simply no knowledge or control on how their hard earned money is spent. While in a democracy people have control and can question the government of the day about its financial prudence.

Budgets in democratic countries have clear statements mentioning what the money is for and where it is to be spent. There is also a provision for a rgulating authority which checks if the money is being spent according to the wishes of the Parliament/Congress. Such provisions and mechanisms simply do not exist in China.
just a single question.....has India ever announced that it will spend so and so much money on its neuclear program....so and so on its secret programs....so and so on its missile programs.....?.......and has there been any case that this highlighted authority , if existing, has taken some action...anxiously waiting for your reply (pls refrain from typical comments of educate yourself....read my post....you dont know a thing....four eyed monkey...or bullshit stuff only a sensible and convincing counterargument)
 
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1.4 is understated; 2.2 as per SIPRI is more sound.

And please, don't place India beside any Western democracy; the 2 are inheritedly different.

I don't think the chinese members here are arguing the China's military spending figures aren't deflated.
 
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1.4 is understated; 2.2 as per SIPRI is more sound.

And please, don't place India beside any Western democracy; the 2 are inheritedly different.

Why?

All of the sudden, India become a black sheep of the democratic family?

It proudly announces itself as the largest democracy in the world.
 
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Hi, guys, this is my first post here. I'd love to say I'm a long time lurker blah blah blah, but the fact remains I only found out this forum a month or so ago, despite my long and enduring fascination with the subcontinent.

I believe the question regarding China's budget is twofold. Does Chinese defense budget include all items usually considered defense-related? Also, is the overall government budget transparent enough that we can locate budgets for items not included in the defense budget?

For the first question, yes, there are a few military-related items not on the Chinese defense budget. Nuclear force, foreign weapon acquisition, armed police forces, etc,.

But it would be unfair to accuse China of trying to hide its military budget, as every country has different budget system and structure. For example much of the U.S. nuclear arsenal are owned by the Department of Energy and 'on loan' to the DoD, and as a result a significant percentage of expenditure for the US strategic forces are under DoE's budget instead of the defense budget. And yes, Chinese armed police budget are not included under the military budget, but so is the budget of U.S's Department of Homeland Security.

As for foreign weapon acquisition, I think we all know how the trend goes. A few years ago this might be a major part of China's 'real' military expenditure, but now it's completely insignificant.

For the second the question the answer is more unfavorable to PRC vis-a-vis the U.S., IMO.

As an example we know a major part of U.S. strategic forces budget is under DoE, but we also know the DoE budget breakdown well enough to say how much is U.S spending on the strategic defense. On the other hand we know part of China's strategic forces budget is covered by the space program budget. But we do not know the break down of the space program budget good enough to give a clear figure to China's overall strategic forces budget.

So I'd say the major problem with transparency of China's military spending is the overall transparency (or lack thereof) of China's budget reporting system, of both the central and local governments (e.g. how much subsidies are local governments handing out to armed forces stationed in their areas). It's unhelpful for outsiders like U.S. and Japan to keep complaining about China's defense budget, given the obvious asymmetry nature of their respective military power vis-a-vis China. Better if they focus on the more general aspect of China's budget transparency problem, which I'd imagine much of the Chinese citizenry will also have a very keen interest on.

I also have to point out one should not jump from 'the Chinese is spending more on the military than it officially says' to the conclusion 'China is spending higher than average amount of money on the military comparing to the rest of the world'.

According to SIPRI's estimation, China is spending about 2% of its GDP on military, much higher than the official 1.4% figure, but not unusually high for a country of China's size and stature (it's still a lower percentage than U.S. Russia, India, France, in fact it's lower than all major powers except Germany and Japan). I would even go as far as saying it's very irresponsible for the Chinese government if it's really spending only 1.4% of GDP on its defense given China's vast oversea interests and local security situation.
 
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Why?

All of the sudden, India become a black sheep of the democratic family?

It proudly announces itself as the largest democracy in the world.

Cause Mr.ao33 has great :smitten: for us Indians:rofl: .He invests great amount of effort in educating us.:P

http://www.defence.pk/forums/878810-post90.html

Some of the Chinese members ignore him,as they believe he is a Japanese trying to stir up controversies. :undecided:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/881729-post146.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/881787-post149.html
 
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I would even go as far as saying it's very irresponsible for the Chinese government if it's really spending only 1.4% of GDP on its defense given China's vast oversea interests and local security situation.

Had the same thoughts.

Very informative in your first post!:tup:

And :welcome: to :pdf:.
 
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Aww, how the hell a China's spending of defence on GDP topic turn into an Indian trolls playground?:undecided:
Are you Indian trolls really so proud of your so-called biggest "Caste-democrazy" in the world?
Now before you troll in to lecture us, check out what kind of life you are enjoying under your beloved GOI;
(1) India Tops world Hunger Chart: WFP Report. Fotonix
(2) India 134 on UN development index - India - The Times of India
(3) India – Failing to Control Open Defecation Blunts Nation?s Growth Sanitation Updates
(4) India ranks 171 out of 175 in public health spending, says WHO study - India - The Times of India
(5) BBC NEWS | South Asia | More Indians in 'extreme poverty'
Now tell me what made you think you got the right to put yourselves in the high moral ground to bash us with your so-called "Freedom" or "Rights" of Indians.:argh:
 
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Aww, how the hell a China's spending of defence on GDP topic turn into an Indian trolls playground?:undecided:
Are you Indian trolls really so proud of your so-called biggest "Caste-democrazy" in the world?
Now before you troll in to lecture us, check out what kind of life you are enjoying under your beloved GOI;
(1) India Tops world Hunger Chart: WFP Report. Fotonix
(2) India 134 on UN development index - India - The Times of India
(3) India – Failing to Control Open Defecation Blunts Nation?s Growth Sanitation Updates
(4) India ranks 171 out of 175 in public health spending, says WHO study - India - The Times of India
(5) BBC NEWS | South Asia | More Indians in 'extreme poverty'
Now tell me what made you think you got the right to put yourselves in the high moral ground to bash us with your so-called "Freedom" or "Rights" of Indians.:argh:

Upholding the legacy of grey boy2 are you?

Congratulations!Just when this thread was coming to a logical end,you end up posting stuff which is a troll magnet.:tup:
 
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