China says Australia should consider Japan's war history before submarine contract

[mike2000 is back]

Michael, please don't make a joke of a serious subject. You irk me with your laughter. Of course it is not an issue of pride for Japanese to know what our ancestors did in China. Now, you, shut it.

Why should shut it up? This is a public forum buddy. Everybody is free to express his views, even you. Afterall, we are not in N.Korea , are we?

But you said earlier that your ancestors fouggt hard to save China, Korea and other Asian countries from western imperialism. Even though you not only collaborated with Western powers during WWII to carve up China, Korea, but Japan also allied with nazi Germany and invaded colonise other Asian countries which you ruled with an iron fists. So just like western powers and Russia, Japan was out for expansion, colonization and securing its interests wherever it could afford to do. Saving its Asian subjects was never the intention of Japan. its funny to hear Japanese even mention this. Lol
In fact, have you ever wondered why the Chinese and Koreans despise Japan so much? Ir is it also because of western powers brainwashing them to hate Japan and divide Asia? Lol

 

[TaiShang]

What is truly sad is that multitude of Japanese academics and patriots have the same view as I. LOL.

Did i not say to @TaiShang of the "fit of rage" that would be leveled on Japan?

You have helped further disclose the true nature of a lot of China and Japan haters, my friend and I see you yourself are at times at great surprise and disappointment. That sort of reaction, however, was expected.

I guess those trolls will keep repeating same/similar moot points until the other side gives up and let their discourse run supreme.

Due to this (and they have all the time for this), it is perhaps better to decrease the level of engagement with those and, instead, delineate on the indigenous theories and analyses regardless of ideological and tricky counter attacks.

well you liberated them from western imperialism isn't it Nihonjin san? The Chinese should be thanking Japan instead of complainng about Japans war crimes.

You have your own bloody past against each other for one reason or another. This, however, has not preclude you from forming a strong Union (well, except the UK as a US bridgehead inside the EU, but this is a side issue), right?

So, yes, we have all the historical and political consciousness we need. This way, we understand history, but, thanks to political consciousness, we also understand present.

One can utilize history progressively or retrogressively. We chose to push the dialectics progressively. The US-led West, on the other hand, desires us to remain engaged in retrogressive histrocity. We will try not to let that happen.

But you said earlier that your ancestors fouggt hard to save China, Korea and other Asian countries from western imperialism.

He did not say that. He implied that one of the effects of Japanese expansionism was liberation from Western colonialism. He just stated a fact and you are forcing your side of interpretation into it.

In fact, have you ever wondered why the Chinese and Koreans despise Japan so much? Ir is it also because of western powers brainwashing them to hate Japan and divide Asia?

Well, Europeans despise the US as much -- as well as vice versa. To bring out the best of your relationship, it just takes a war in Iraq and French government.

What is your point?

 

[Tiqiu]

I suppose China is against Japan's embedding into integrating further in the American Alliance System. As is natural. There is nothing wrong in stating diplomatic protest. It is simple diplomatic procedure.

haha, bro, we truly understand each other.

Those China-haters wanting to talk us into war path are dreaming. Their attempt to perpetuate the idea that the Chinese people would hate Japan for ever because of the wartime issues is foolish and out of touch of the reality. The reality is Chinese people, mostly those who have a say in the policy making see and understand what Japan can bring to the future of China. On the CCTV most popular "Guofangjushi Dajatan" weekly program, the history issues were merely raised by these 3 elite think tanks of China, the focus were manly on Japan's future path(thus leading to the future path of China's as well)

《大家谈》 20150807 "Japan Security and the US-Japan Alliance"

From 28.00, if you understand Chinese, you would have some idea about Chinese policy to deal with Japan. I just listed few main points for quick reference:
1) Japanese are very practical people, their view about China is gradually Changing;
2) after 4 agreements reached between Xi and Abe in 2014, there were no anti-Japan boycotts and demonstration in China;
3) soon Japan will be at the cross roads to decide about its future path: China or the US;
4) the crazy spending on Japanese goods of 4 million Chinese travelers may also benefit China as we want to see a richer neighbor.

 

[bbccdd1470]

This is exactly what I told @TaiShang --- in another discussion. About American 'fit of rage'. My theory and prediction is correct, as it seems. One of the reasons why Abe and the LDP are imposing gradual change.

Americans can be quite reactive as this thread has shown.

This is already so hard for you, a Japanese member, to express your pro-NEAU stand here, I can not imagine how much trouble a Japanese government will receive when they stand against American interest. Good luck and 頑張って.

American don't hold exclusivity to be Japanese's friend, Chinese can also be Japanese's comrades. What is big deal about Yasukuni Shrine?? the best moment to solve our pass is when we become friend and not when hate each other.

This is what I'm doing, sometime you have to put aside your personal feeling to achieve a greater good. Since Daiyutai and Yasukuni Shrine issues are all about emotion and face, if we can put aside our emotion, those problems are actually nothing.

 

[mike2000 is back]

You have helped further disclose the true nature of a lot of China and Japan haters, my friend and I see you yourself are at times at great surprise and disappointment. That sort of reaction, however, was expected.

I guess those trolls will keep repeating same/similar moot points until the other side gives up and let their discourse run supreme.

Due to this (and they have all the time for this), it is perhaps better to decrease the level of engagement with those and, instead, delineate on the indigenous theories and analyses regardless of ideological and tricky counter attacks.



You have your own bloody past against each other for one reason or another. This, however, has not preclude you from forming a strong Union (well, except the UK as a US bridgehead inside the EU, but this is a side issue), right?

So, yes, we have all the historical and political consciousness we need. This way, we understand history, but, thanks to political consciousness, we also understand present.

One can utilize history progressively or retrogressively. We chose to push the dialectics progressively. The US-led West, on the other hand, desires us to remain engaged in retrogressive histrocity. We will try not to let that happen.



He did not say that. He implied that one of the effects of Japanese expansionism was liberation from Western colonialism. He just stated a fact and you are forcing your side of interpretation into it.



Well, Europeans despise the US as much -- as well as vice versa. To bring out the best of your relationship, it just takes a war in Iraq and French government.

What is your point?

Lol Yep, if that's the case, why don't you form a union with Japan then? As far as I know nobody is stopping you from doing so. JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCED CHINA TO LOBBY AGAINST JAPAN BAGGING THIS AUSTRALIAN SUBMARINE CONTRACT. JUST LIKE NOBODY FORCED CHINA TO KEEP FAMING THE FLAMES OVERSEAS ABOUT JAPANESE CRIMES. In fact it's China( and to a lesser extent Korea )who is against Japan becoming a normal country not the west. Since China seems to think that Japan still represents a threat to peace and stability in Asia. China criticises Japan's revision of pacifist constitution - Australia Network News - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
China says Japan security law 'threat' to regional peace - Channel NewsAsia

So as long as there is a political will by both sides to form a 'union' then it will happen irragardless of what other countries might want. However we all know there is no political or even less so public will to do so. So stop blaming your disagreement/hatred among each othet on western powers. Its between the two of you.

 

[bbccdd1470]

Is China willing to let that go ?

This problem can be easily solved, if Japanese prime minister do not pay a visit there. Do you know why Emperor Akihito does not visit the Yasukuni Shrine? This is because there are many people in Japan still sensitive about the Chinese people's feeling.

 

[Aepsilons]

haha, bro, we truly understand each other.

Those China-haters wanting to talk us into war path are dreaming. Their attempt to perpetuate the idea that the Chinese people would hate Japan for ever because of the wartime issues is foolish and out of touch of the reality. The reality is Chinese people, mostly those who have a say in the policy making see and understand what Japan can bring to the future of China. On the CCTV most popular "Guofangjushi Dajatan" weekly program, the history issues were merely raised by these 3 elite think tanks of China, the focus were manly on Japan's future path(thus leading to the future path of China's as well)

《大家谈》 20150807 "Japan Security and the US-Japan Alliance"

From 28.00, if you understand Chinese, you would have some idea about Chinese policy to deal with Japan. I just listed few main points for quick reference:
1) Japanese are very practical people, their view about China is gradually Changing;
2) after 4 agreements reached between Xi and Abe in 2014, there were no anti-Japan boycotts and demonstration in China;
3) soon Japan will be at the cross roads to decide about its future path: China or the US;
4) the crazy spending on Japanese goods of 4 million Chinese travelers may also benefit China as we want to see a richer neighbor.

Thank you, my friend. I would actually also endorse a great write up, one by Dr. Zhongqi Pan, PH.D. A bit more about him; he is an Associate Professor at the School of International Relations and Public Affairs in Fudan University. He received his Ph.D. in international relations from Fudan University in 1999. He was a visiting scholar to Lund University (2006), the John K. Fairbank Center for East Asian Research at Harvard University (2004), the Henry L. Stimson Center (2001), and University of Tokyo (1999–2000).


Sino-Japanese Dispute over the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands: The Pending Controversy from the Chinese Perspective - Springer

 

[Tshering22]

But our JPNese member declared that he is following in the footsteps of those who committed those crimes.

Is it happening now?

Do you see Japanese generals mass raping women and beheading people now?

No right?

So where is the question of what he is saying?

The point is, is East Asia willing to move beyond 1945 or not. If there was continued war and killings by Japan or anyone else, by all means, fight and destroy.

But they are doing nothing. China is doing nothing.

Then where is the question of hostilities in the first place?

 

[Aepsilons]

You have helped further disclose the true nature of a lot of China and Japan haters, my friend and I see you yourself are at times at great surprise and disappointment. That sort of reaction, however, was expected.

I guess those trolls will keep repeating same/similar moot points until the other side gives up and let their discourse run supreme.

Due to this (and they have all the time for this), it is perhaps better to decrease the level of engagement with those and, instead, delineate on the indigenous theories and analyses regardless of ideological and tricky counter attacks.

Tho i must say i didn't expect that the responses of some American members would be so reactive. I must agree with you that it will be better to decrease engagement with them and to focus more on theoretical analyses.

 

[Tshering22]

This problem can be easily solved, if Japanese prime minister do not pay a visit there. Do you know why Emperor Akihito does not visit the Yasukuni Shrine? This is because there are many people in Japan still sensitive about the Chinese people's feeling.

It is a shrine located inside their country honouring those who died fighting for their country.

This also includes those soldiers who fought European powers as well.

It is like asking you guys not to visit some area inside your own country.

 

[Aepsilons]

Is it happening now?

Do you see Japanese generals mass raping women and beheading people now?

No right?

So where is the question of what he is saying?

The point is, is East Asia willing to move beyond 1945 or not. If there was continued war and killings by Japan or anyone else, by all means, fight and destroy.

But they are doing nothing. China is doing nothing.

Then where is the question of hostilities in the first place?

He does not want that; he is driven by rage by my recent appraisal on US presence in Japan and Korea. I suppose my calling a spade a spade has hit a nerve. Sigh. Quite interesting really.

It is a shrine located inside their country honouring those who died fighting for their country.

This also includes those soldiers who fought European powers as well.

It is like asking you guys not to visit some area inside your own country.

Bhai Shering,

In this aspect I must say that the Yasukuni Shrine should be re-evaluated. For one, I have no problem with the Shrine interring the souls of soldiers who died throughout the wars to defend Japan. However I believe the 14 class A war criminals should be removed from the Yasukuni Shrine, just out of respect. Tho I am sure the families of these 14 individuals would like to honor the memory of their relatives, it is better to prepare another private shrine or grave site for them at a less indicative location. I think that Japan will eventually consider doing this when the environment is right.

But i will end this by saying that The Emperor , Himself, does not visit Yasukuni. End.

 

[surya kiran]

He does not want that; he is driven by rage by my recent appraisal on US presence in Japan and Korea. I suppose my calling a spade a spade has hit a nerve. Sigh. Quite interesting really.

Ok on a slightly tangential topic. And addressing the elephant in the room. How do you think the Senkaku Island dispute to be solved?

 

[Aepsilons]

Ok on a slightly tangential topic. And addressing the elephant in the room. How do you think the Senkaku Island dispute to be solved?

It must be shelved. In fact it is being shelved actively.

Ok on a slightly tangential topic. And addressing the elephant in the room. How do you think the Senkaku Island dispute to be solved?

China is willing to work with Japan to push forward the development of stable, long-term ties, Premier Li Keqiang said on Wednesday.

Though the China-Japan relationship is being improved, Li told a Japanese business delegation in Beijing, both sides have to face the reality that there are some difficulties.

The nations should make efforts to prevent the fluctuation of ties to create more opportunities for both sides and maintain the peace and stability of Northeast Asia, Li said.

During a meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on Sunday in Seoul, Li urged Japan to properly tackle the issue of history "in a responsible manner" and to "undertake positive policies toward China".

Li made calls for "nurturing mutual trust" and "deepening pragmatic exchanges and cooperation" during the meeting.

It is hoped that Japan will "fully perceive the great sensitivity, tangibly honor its solemn commitments made so far, effectively face history squarely and reflect on it, and properly tackle the relevant issue in a responsible manner", he said.

Li: China wants stability with Japan - World - Chinadaily.com.cn

 

[bbccdd1470]

It is a shrine located inside their country honouring those who died fighting for their country.

This also includes those soldiers who fought European powers as well.

It is like asking you guys not to visit some area inside your own country.

So we only ask their PM not to visit there, the rest can visit whenever they want.

 

[Tshering22]

He does not want that; he is driven by rage by my recent appraisal on US presence in Japan and Korea. I suppose my calling a spade a spade has hit a nerve. Sigh. Quite interesting really.

Rattling up the battle quotient to justify presence is common.

You want them out, then build your military.

- Do a complete PR makeover.

- Don't participate in NATO wars but bilaterally (without any third country US or otherwise involved) engage in military wargames with other friendly countries.

- Build and expand your positive image as a value-adding military force.

- I cannot guarantee that it may work will all countries, but your own citizens will change their attitude about the hate they have for military. Also, if at all there is an attempt to reach out to China in terms of bilateral military exercises, do it.
It will remove all reasons for foreign troops to stay in Japan. Also, Chinese government may warm up to you soon.

- Engage more closely with Korea and come forward with proposed joint developments. Now that both Japan and Korea have patched up, help build trust. Once they trust you, you will be in for a smooth sailing.

- It will take quite a lot of effort as Japan is advanced in terms of equipment but your combat experience is limited at least for the last 70 years. Change that; suggest an alternative to western powers this time through bilateral training with friendly countries and even neutral diplomatic ones like countries of LATAM and Africa.

- Invest more in an Asia specific bloc.

It will take shape once China and Korea have completely shed their misgivings and anger of past. The rest of Asia is already very good in terms of relations to you. Also help build confidence between Vietnam and China so that their misgivings are also sorted.

Imagine the PR coup Japan could do if it could propose a 15-member Asian power delegation: Japan, China, Korea, India and ASEAN countries combined.

This seems quite idealistic, but it is doable provided your governments take a serious interest in getting it done.

There will be attempts made to sabotage any such initiatives but you have to act quickly and work hard.

This destructive diplomacy is getting no Asian country anywhere. Only arms exporters are winning.

Remember how cleverly EU and NAFTA sorted out everything and now command terms?

Russia proposed a similar mature diplomacy with EU countries but just then Ukraine Crisis was manufactured. For what, you can imagine.

Asia needs to do the same. At least some countries for a start and then later others can join.

Bhai Shering,

In this aspect I must say that the Yasukuni Shrine should be re-evaluated. For one, I have no problem with the Shrine interring the souls of soldiers who died throughout the wars to defend Japan. However I believe the 14 class A war criminals should be removed from the Yasukuni Shrine, just out of respect. Tho I am sure the families of these 14 individuals would like to honor the memory of their relatives, it is better to prepare another private shrine or grave site for them at a less indicative location. I think that Japan will eventually consider doing this when the environment is right.

But i will end this by saying that The Emperor , Himself, does not visit Yasukuni. End.

Nihonjin-san, this is a wonderful idea.

Why not remove those war criminals and make it open to the public?

That way, China will also trust you and there will be mutual harmony.

However, this should also mean that war criminals of Allied powers should be exposed and similar measures should be made.

Take the step and you can press these countries as well to do the same.