China’s J20 Stealth Fighter: Made in America...via Belgrade

[tanlixiang28776]

1. mobile radars?

2. what are you saying? china has the same air defense today as the Serbs in the late 90's, has a F-117 flown against a hq-9? or s-300pmu2

Not to mention AESA equipped AWACS

 

[gambit]

1. mobile radars?

2. what are you saying? china has the same air defense today as the Serbs in the late 90's, has a F-117 flown against a hq-9? or s-300pmu2

A 'mobile' radar is still a radar. The label 'mobile' can only give an advantage of what else? Mobility. And perhaps in response to a coverage gap. As long as this 'mobile' radar cannot detect an F-117 class body, its mobility is not so much an advantage as it is irrelevant.

 

[no_name]

YouTube - Chinese stealth breakthrough?

Hmmm the wing looked like it's made out of wood. Is it the actual weckage or a prop for visual effect?

Or just wood look alike composits

 

[SQ8]

Mobile sensors would have to be either very lucky..or know the precise flight path to get a hit..
The difference for a modern air defense system will only lie in the flight path.. it will have to be more doglegged than before to avoid the detection circles..
However..if China manages to build up such a dense network near potential targets that even the reduced detection range circles overlap at areas.. the probability of a F-117 sized return getting through undetected is radically diminished.
In theory..
you could space Radars at 100m in a grid.. see if anything gets through that...

 

[below_freezing]

Hmmm the wing looked like it's made out of wood. Is it the actual weckage or a prop for visual effect?

Or just wood look alike composits

wood is one of the most complex composites in the world. nothing could come close to its properties of lower density than water with high structural strength until the 20th century. i wouldn't be surprised if some composites looked exactly like wood (made of things more robust than cellulose though).

 

[gambit]

Mobile sensors would have to be either very lucky..or know the precise flight path to get a hit..
The difference for a modern air defense system will only lie in the flight path.. it will have to be more doglegged than before to avoid the detection circles..
However..if China manages to build up such a dense network near potential targets that even the reduced detection range circles overlap at areas.. the probability of a F-117 sized return getting through undetected is radically diminished.
In theory..
you could space Radars at 100m in a grid.. see if anything gets through that...

That is true...In theory. However, this is just as much about cost as it is about theory. These things cannot be simply conjured up or even built in days. Manufacturers have a clique of customers: the government or several governments. Every station would have to manned. In war, that is possible enough, but in peace time that would be financially prohibitive. In the short time before a potential war, it would not be possible to build up the desired units and deploy them to provide that comprehensive coverage.

 

[SQ8]

Like I said.. in theory..

Yet.. I remember reading in a mag about an automated patriot.. i.e nobody at the site.. yet all linked to a central command..
So.. given availability of power..
Such a system could be kept operational 24/7 - 365 ...
So the main node with a certain limited number of personnel is always at full strength.. and these remote sites.. stay on indefinitely..
Sending data on .. targets, tracking and on any faults..
and as currently..can be switched from auto to semi-auto..to manual attack.
In theory off course...regular checks and maintenance will still have to be done.

 

[S10]

What else are there that has the reach of a radar?

How about half a dozen mobile air defence regiments, airborne assets to go along with those stationary ground radars? Has it not strike you that perhaps there is overlap in coverage? A single F-117 without any support? I think I have a better chance of slapping POTUS after charging into the WH with a monster truck.

You could in theory, but unfortunately, that theory has not been proven, whereas the ability to navigate through radar coverage gaps has been proven before the F-117.

Supported by intelligence, flying in carefully charted routes, against enemies operating obsolete sensors and suppressed by EWAR support.

 

[amalakas]

interesting subject it seems i conjured up ..

hmmm

 

[gambit]

How about half a dozen mobile air defence regiments, airborne assets to go along with those stationary ground radars? Has it not strike you that perhaps there is overlap in coverage? A single F-117 without any support? I think I have a better chance of slapping POTUS after charging into the WH with a monster truck.


Supported by intelligence, flying in carefully charted routes, against enemies operating obsolete sensors and suppressed by EWAR support.

OK...Let me try again...Those are still radars. Overlap in coverage does not mean greater odds of detection. If one X-band radar at position X have a %1 chance of detection, odds are very good that another X-band radar at position Y will have the same %1 odds. Same for position Z. May be %1.001. May be %1.5. But unlikely %10. The reason why the F-117 would try to avoid coming in contact with ANY seeking radar signal, despite knowing the fact that the odds of detection is very slim, is simply because we do not want to have that %1 at all. We want %0.

 

[applesauce]

OK...Let me try again...Those are still radars. Overlap in coverage does not mean greater odds of detection. If one X-band radar at position X have a %1 chance of detection, odds are very good that another X-band radar at position Y will have the same %1 odds. Same for position Z. May be %1.001. May be %1.5. But unlikely %10. The reason why the F-117 would try to avoid coming in contact with ANY seeking radar signal, despite knowing the fact that the odds of detection is very slim, is simply because we do not want to have that %1 at all. We want %0.

well anyways at the end of the day, we cant say that a F-117 could fly through beijing without being detected, it is untested against the air defenses like that of the capital of china today and the US would certainly not know the exact locations of all sam sites/radar stations deployed around beijing, and being able to build something like the j-20 means they can effectively test their equipment against a flying LO aircraft.

 

[HongWu]

Simply spouting the initials IADS is not going to cut it. The F-117 proved what it could do. That 'IADS' has not. In every air defense net, there will be gaps in coverage and an F-117 can navigate those gaps using passive radar warning detection alone. We have been doing that technique since the Cold War.

Not true. "Gaps in coverage" is not guaranteed. Radar stealth is simply techniques to reduce the ranges at which radar can detect / track / target. F-117 (and F-22) is optimized against short-wave radars such as fighters and missile seekers. It does not result in 0 detection range. F-117 (and F-22) is quite detectable by long-wave radars.

The odds that F-117 or F-22 can fly into critical Chinese airspace undetected is zero. China has the world's most dense and advanced IADS, especially around critical areas like Beijing. This IADS is optimized against stealth targets -- for example, China has been using anti-stealth bistatic radars since early 2000's.

AFAIK, B-2 is optimized against long-wave EW radar. It might have better chances than F-117 or F-22. But then it wouldn't be able to evade fighter radars and radar seekers so well.

 

[Foxhound31]

Single unsupported F-117 trying to navigate gaps in IADS of one of the world's most heavily defended area and flies over Tiananmen Square.....I just got a movie idea to sell to Hollywood.

Excuse me while I work Rambo, oppressed minorities and hot women into that script.

*i just died laughing at that*

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Lets get back on topic shall we.

If China has the ability to create a functioning J 20 out of a few burned pieces from the F 117 than that is freaking impressive.

Its like shooting down a turkey, taking a few pieces, and then cloning a god damn eagle out of it.

 

[gambit]

Not true. "Gaps in coverage" is not guaranteed.

Not guaranteed does not equal to assurance of otherwise. Look at China's map. Now understand that an air defense radar has at best a couple hundreds km of effective coverage. Now guess how many stations will you need to actually overlap each other in order to have no gaps.

Radar stealth is simply techniques to reduce the ranges at which radar can detect / track / target.

Yes...I have been saying that long before you are a member of this forum.

F-117 (and F-22) is optimized against short-wave radars such as fighters and missile seekers.

Yes...I have been saying that long before you are a member of this forum.

It does not result in 0 detection range.

Yes...I have been saying that long before you are a member of this forum.

Try something I do not know.

F-117 (and F-22) is quite detectable by long-wave radars.

There goes that 'long wavelength' thingie again...You are wrong...They are not 'quite detectable', whatever that mean. The odds of detection increases with increasing wavelengths, but at the cost of target resolutions, such as altitude, speed, and heading. Increased odds does not mean guarantee.

The odds that F-117 or F-22 can fly into critical Chinese airspace undetected is zero. China has the world's most dense and advanced IADS, especially around critical areas like Beijing. This IADS is optimized against stealth targets -- for example, China has been using anti-stealth bistatic radars since early 2000's.

By what do you mean 'optimized'? I usually see people squirm whenever they are asked to detail the 'what' of this 'optimized'. From my experience, the word is often used by people who do not know what they are talking about.

AFAIK, B-2 is optimized against long-wave EW radar. It might have better chances than F-117 or F-22. But then it wouldn't be able to evade fighter radars and radar seekers so well.

No...The B-2 is not 'optimized' against 'long-wave' freq. These goes that useless word again.

Bottom line is this...An F-117 at night and at below the radar horizon, it can hit Beijing without Chinese air defense radars even registering an 'anomaly'.