China & Russia need to take action against America.

[InFn-0]

The question is, why after all these years of playing the dangerous game with USA/Nato is Pakistan looking to join the Anti-USA club? Why did they not do it in 2001, or even during the Soviet Occupation?

 

[lem34]

I have not suggested that china and or russia could beat america conventionally. But nuclear war would be suicide and even then in op i stated that i thought it likely america would win however the victory would be a pyrric victory cos america would face barren wasteland in america with a retaliation some nukes would get that through. The point which i was making which perhaps I didnt make as well as id like to have done was that betweeen 1990 to 2010 wwe have lived in more a less a unipolar world. I think things are changing now with the ascendency of china and a more confident and assertive russia. You will note that although America encouraged Georgia to get itself in the situation they did with Russia yet america for all their sweet words did not do much when push came to shove.

My point that I was trying to make is how much longer can or will china & russia just let americans do whatever they want; iraq?afghanistan?Libya? Iran next? Pakistan next. At this rate there may be a time that once america gets it european missile shield up and gets cocky with china and thinks they can steal resources at will that no one will be able to do anything.

Under normal circumstances may be good sense and pragmatism would prevail and a nuke WW3 averted however Americans europeans and white english speaking countries are financially bankrupt and their desparation shows.

Also I dont think the west are itching for a war where they will have large numbers of soldiers being killed. Their appetite for hardship death and hunger is less than other countries. As vietnam showed large scale casulties is something that america goes to great length to avoid.

Earlier someone mentioned Israel and I think its important to remember that a small group of disciplined jews in america controls american foreign policy and Israel could be something that countries that can not reach america need to look at as a serious target.

 

[Developereo]

My point that I was trying to make is how much longer can or will china & russia just let americans do whatever they want;

Yes, I accept your point but China and Russia have their own issues with each other and third parties. It's not a simple matter of standing up to America. These countries will challenge America only when their core national interests are impacted, as will anybody else. Nobody's going to be a hero and stare down the reigning hyperpower for someone else's benefit.

The last thing China or Russia wants is to ratchet up the tension with the US. Despite fanboi analyses, the US is still immeasurably strong and wields enormous influence around the world. Not to mention that there will be all sorts of opportunists who will ride America's coat-tails just to settle scores with China or Russia.

Israel could be something that countries that can not reach america need to look at as a serious target.

Yes, I was thinking that might be Pakistan's 'samson option'. If we make it crystal clear that, in the event of a NATO attack on Pakistan, we will guarantee a nuclear hit on Tel Aviv, it might give pause to the attackers. It will deepen the alliance between India and Israel, but they are already thick as thieves anyway.

 

[tony singh]

China and Russia won't come to Pakistanis help, they might issue statements but that's all.

 

[patna_ke_presley]

Because Northern Alliance was pro-Russia 20 years but times have changed today. The same Northern Alliance are now in American created Afghan National Army (ANA) and are pro-american. Besides only a few countries recognized the Taliban government in the 90's.

Pakistan and Russia also didn't have good relations back then, but today the relations between the two countries are improving. U.S. and India didn't have any good relations back then, but today the relations between U.S. and India are in an all-time high.

Don't compare 1990 strategic interests to 2011 strategic interests. The world has changed a lot since 9/11/2001.

Russia strategic interest lies in Afghanistan than Pakistan, that's why they allowed Americans to use Northern Distribution Network back in 2009. Because Russian very well know that if Americans leave Afghanistan abruptly, there would spillover of militant activities. Any I never heard of Northern Alliance doing any thing anti-Russian in last 10 years, so your blames are total lies. They need everyone's help, so it is obvious that they won't say we don't need it.

Also the link you have provided is from Pakistani analysts, not from any Russian analyst. Russians are only giving signal that they will take full advantage of situation after the increased worth of NDN and they are not going to close it.

Anyway, Russians and Pakistani relation has not reached a point what you are trying to show, I never heard of any mutual deal apart from $500 million loan to steel mills.

 

[lem34]

Yes, I accept your point but China and Russia have their own issues with each other and third parties. It's not a simple matter of standing up to America. These countries will challenge America only when their core national interests are impacted, as will anybody else. Nobody's going to be a hero and stare down the reigning hyperpower for someone else's benefit.

The last thing China or Russia wants is to ratchet up the tension with the US. Despite fanboi analyses, the US is still immeasurably strong and wields enormous influence around the world. Not to mention that there will be all sorts of opportunists who will ride America's coat-tails just to settle scores with China or Russia.




Yes, I was thinking that might be Pakistan's 'samson option'. If we make it crystal clear that, in the event of a NATO attack on Pakistan, we will guarantee a nuclear hit on Tel Aviv, it might give pause to the attackers. It will deepen the alliance between India and Israel, but they are already thick as thieves anyway.

But you know american aims are in my opinion to dominate and try to stay as the sole empire in the world. It is accepted China is on the way up. America on the way down. Core interests change as a country gets more powerfull or weaker. Pakistan and or Iran may not have been chinese/russian core interests 20 years ago, today things may be different.

looks like there will whether it takes 10 years or 20 years be change of world leadership. Will america give the batton peacefully & gracefully? Look at fall and rise of empires There is war and misery always. This time potentially its worse cos of nukes. Had we not had germany entering the fray the americans would have attacked in 1930 onwards.

How America planned to destroy BRITAIN in 1930 with bombing raids and chemical weapons | Mail Online

 

[lem34]

Russia strategic interest lies in Afghanistan than Pakistan, that's why they allowed Americans to use Northern Distribution Network back in 2009. Because Russian very well know that if Americans leave Afghanistan abruptly, there would spillover of militant activities. Any I never heard of Northern Alliance doing any thing anti-Russian in last 10 years, so your blames are total lies. They need everyone's help, so it is obvious that they won't say we don't need it.

Also the link you have provided is from Pakistani analysts, not from any Russian analyst. Russians are only giving signal that they will take full advantage of situation after the increased worth of NDN and they are not going to close it.

Anyway, Russians and Pakistani relation has not reached a point what you are trying to show, I never heard of any mutual deal apart from $500 million loan to steel mills.

Mate Russia has larger chicken to fry in the world order esp if putin is involved. If americans keep pushing georgia and eastern european countries, missile shield etc. Then putin will not go home and play with his bangles

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

China and Russia won't come to Pakistanis help, they might issue statements but that's all.

Tony mate you missed the plot its not about china/russia helping pakistan but protecting their own interests

 

[illusion8]

China will wait for a decade or two to take on the US face to face, The Chinese strategy would be that in a decade it will grow more stronger and the US more weaker, so immediate direct action from the Chinese right now will not happen. I don't think Russia would also be interested to take on the US.

 

[fd24]

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that the US can be beaten. Both China and Russia combined can not defeat the US militarily and neither country will risk direct military engagement with the US.

The US remains the only hyperpower in the world. If you don't believe me, just open an atlas and see the conflict zones: they are all located in the neighborhood of Russia and China. Neither of those countries has the power to reciprocate in America's neighborhood.

Russia and China are wary of America and the don't want a permanent US presence in Afghanistan, but that's about as far as they will go. They will not lock horns with America all over the world for no reason.

Oh, and by the way, the US doesn't need Afghanistan to block oil supplies; they have been able to do that for decades from their bases in Bahrain. Why do you suppose the Fifth Fleet has been positioned there all this time?

Mr Developereo

No way am i or the OP suggesting the US can be beaten. However do you really think they would be naive enough to take on Pakistan with Russia and China objecting? Do you think the consequences of what would potentially happen is worth taking a punt by the USA? I think not. What is clear is Pakistan would be a completely different issue and frankly China and Russia have the power to tip the balance.
In reality i have a theory in what is happening and i believe its called "burying bad news and diverting attention".
USA are simply being humiliated in Afghanistan and with the imminent retreat will use Pakistan as a scapegoat and point the finger at them for their failures and misdemeanors - just my opinion.

Another thought are the main players in the world already posturing for world dominance already -is this what its all about? Pakistan are perhaps just pawns??

 

[lem34]

China will wait for a decade or two to take on the US face to face, The Chinese strategy would be that in a decade it will grow more stronger and the US more weaker, so immediate direct action from the Chinese right now will not happen. I don't think Russia would also be interested to take on the US.

I hear what you say but will america allow china the grace of ten years or will they cos they are desperate financially attack at a time of their choosing earlier when they are more likely to be successful.

 

[patna_ke_presley]

Mate Russia has larger chicken to fry in the world order esp if putin is involved. If americans keep pushing georgia and eastern european countries, missile shield etc. Then putin will not go home and play with his bangles

Putin is supporting anti-Taliban faction before the start of American invasion. It is not like that they will hurt their own interest in Afghanistan to annoy Americans. Because they have other ways to fry chicken but when it comes to Afghanistan there is only one thing between Russians and Americans "Co-operation"

 

[Developereo]

But you know american aims are in my opinion to dominate and try to stay as the sole empire in the world. It is accepted China is on the way up. America on the way down. Core interests change as a country gets more powerfull or weaker. Pakistan and or Iran may not have been chinese/russian core interests 20 years ago, today things may be different.

looks like there will whether it takes 10 years or 20 years be change of world leadership. Will america give the batton peacefully & gracefully? Look at fall and rise of empires There is war and misery always. This time potentially its worse cos of nukes. Had we not had germany entering the fray the americans would have attacked in 1930 onwards.

How America planned to destroy BRITAIN in 1930 with bombing raids and chemical weapons | Mail Online

Of course America will fight tooth and nail against any challenger. But China or Russia are in no position to challenge America -- not even remotely close. And neither do they want to. Why should either country go out of their way to ratchet up tensions and jeopardize their economy and infrastructure? Not unless their core interests are directly threatened. Neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan qualify as a core interest for China or Russia.

It doesn't mean they won't engage in proxy conflicts, but they simply will not engage in direct military conflict with America.

I am always amazed how people underestimate America's strength. Take a look at per-capita GDP, military capability, global power projection, diplomatic strength. It's not even a contest with anyone else. France and Germany joined forces to form the EU and challenge American hegemony. They failed.

 

[lem34]

Putin is supporting anti-Taliban faction before the start of American invasion. It is not like that they will hurt their own interest in Afghanistan to annoy Americans. Because they have other ways to fry chicken but when it comes to Afghanistan there is only one thing between Russians and Americans "Co-operation"

mate if you had read the earlier posts this matter has been responded to by Omar in that we are in a different world today. They say a week in politics is a long time. I think 10 years in geo strategic relations is more than a life time.

Oh mate Putin will want to annoy americans just watch when americans go ahead with missile shields

 

[illusion8]

I hear what you say but will america allow china the grace of ten years or will they cos they are desperate financially attack at a time of their choosing earlier when they are more likely to be successful.

Agree with you, but the best option for China is to wait and take on a weaker US, and I agree that the US is looking to divert its attention of its public by starting a war/ or clouds of war probably against Iran. I don't think a war against Pakistan is conceivable.

My thinking is until and unless there is direct threat to China or Russia, they will not enter into a confrontation with the US.

 

[lem34]

Of course America will fight tooth and nail against any challenger. But China or Russia are in no position to challenge America -- not even remotely close. And neither do they want to. Why should either country go out of their way to ratchet up tensions and jeopardize their economy and infrastructure? Not unless their core interests are directly threatened. Neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan qualify as a core interest for China or Russia.

I am always amazed how people underestimate America's strength. Take a look at per-capita GDP, military capability, global power projection, diplomatic strength. It's not even a contest with anyone else. France and Germany joined forces to form the EU and challenge American hegemony. They failed.

I am not underestimating american strength today. If US dollar was not reserve currency americans would not beable to afford the fuel for their f16s. Interesting times. China controls to a large degree when dollar will reach tipping point for that but thats for a discussion on another thread on another day.