China rapidly narrows technology gap with S. Korea

[Nike]

@Martian2 @cirr @Chinese-Dragon @j20blackdragon

This is becoming more and more absurd when people in this forum compare South Korea to China, which is technologically, scientifically, economically, militarily, geopolitically not comparable. If you are making a ridiculous claim that South Korea using American technology is superior to China, then I have a bad news for those idiots. Google "Your Next TV May Come from New Jersey." This is a report from Bloomberg and it actually says that Samsung and LG are licensing OLED technology from UDC. Sorry to disappoint you for proving that Samsung and LG are nothing more than giant assembly for American corporations. Martian2, maybe if you have time, you can post that report to filter trolls.

If people say China is behind the US, Germany and Japan, then I would agree. But South Korea? No. In fact, the "Made in China 2025" clearly indicates that China AT THIS MOMENT is in the third tier of manufacturing powerhouse along South Korea, United Kingdom and France (whereas both Japan and Germany are the second tier, and the US is the first tier nation), and China intends to eclipse both Japan and Germany by 2025 and the US by 2050.

Disclaimer: I actually can understand Korean (in fact, Korean is my first language and I've lived there when I was young) and lots of media reports from South Korea make ridiculous comments about its manufacturing capacity. For instance, recently the media state that South Korea is the leading nation in semiconductor industry. Obviously people who have knowledge in semiconductor industry realize that that comment is bullshit. But, interestingly enough, their English reports tend to be less nationalistic than the original reports.

Please don't cite Wikipedia to prove your claim. Regarding KFX, there are few experts in South Korea (whom by the way, unless you know Korean will have no idea who they are) who warned the government years ago about this whole fiasco (i.e. ToT) and the upcoming crisis regarding KFX, but their voices and opinions are not seen in English version of Korean newspaper. Of course, foreigner (i.e. Indonesian) would not know how disastrous KFX program is at this moment, but that is another story.

If I have time and if Chinese members here would like to know where and how disastrous KFX program is, I may translate (i.e not using Google Translator) those reports. But at this moment, I don't have time.

regarding the KFX i am disagree with you though. I can read hangguk well, the investigation report and feasibility studies i've read it all, fortunately i have luxury to know the people who involving in the project directly.

 

[antonius123]

@ Martian.

Why are you lying??

You said SAMSUNG only got License from IBM for semiconductor technology.

Explain me: if SAMSUNG doesnt own their own technology, why they sue Renesas over Semiconductor patents??

Samsung Sues Renesas Over Semiconductor Patents
Law360, New York (May 8, 2007, 12:00 AM ET) -- Samsung Electronics Co. filed a lawsuit against rival Renesas Technology Corp. on Friday, accusing the Japanese semiconductor company of infringing on certain patents relating to memory-chip production technology.
Samsung Sues Renesas Over Semiconductor Patents - Law360

Look at how many patent that Samsung get related to Semiconductor technology:
Patent US7098477 - Structure and method of manufacturing a finFET device having stacked fins - Google Patents

How many patent does SMIC or Grace Semiconductor have?

Why do you need to lie and downplay other achievement?

 

[CHN Bamboo]

Even if we surpass,Chinese income can't surpass S.Korean.( ´◔‸◔`)

It is useless comparing China and S.Korea.

Have a look at HDI,life expectation,rising S.Korean cultural influence,S.Korea has already surpassed Japan and in innovation aspect too.

 

[antonius123]

You can't compare a super heavy machine to a forklifts man. That is disrespectful. LOL

Korea, Japan, Germany, France they dont build as super large machine as China - not because they are incapable, but more because of market demand fur such super large machine is not rossy. this is about business.

Accuracy and Efficiency talk more than Size if we refer to technology.

China Hunting for Korean Semiconductor Firms




SEOUL, SOUTH KOREA
16 December 2015 - 12:00pm
Cho Jin-young

It has been found that Chinese companies in the LCD and semiconductor industries are trying to acquire Korean firms in partnership with Samsung Electronics and SK Hynix as well as technical engineers.

According to industry sources, BOE, one of the largest display panel manufacturers in China, recently made an offer to a Korean driver IC design firm. They failed to reach an agreement and signed only a supply contract. “It is said that BOE is looking to invest in a number of other fabless companies as well,” said an industry insider, adding, “Rumor has it that BOE will take over some of them, as is the case with the other Chinese electronics manufacturers that are trying to buy or do business with Korean firms by means of aggressive investment and M&As.”

The Hualian Group, in the meantime, is currently bidding for Fairchild Semiconductor with Hua Capital Management. If the group takes Fairchild, its power semiconductor plant located in Bucheon City, Gyeonggi Province will end up in the hands of Hualian. Earlier, the Tsinghua Unigroup attempted to make an equity investment in SK Hynix but failed.

At present, the number of Korean firms in partnership with Samsung Electronics is about 500 at home and abroad. The numbers amount to more than 1,500 for SK Hynix and approximately 500 for LG Display. Experts point out that an increase in the number of Korean firms purchased by China could pose a significant threat to Samsung Electronics and the like.

- See more at: Chinese Inroads: China Hunting for Korean Semiconductor Firms | BusinessKorea

 

[Plenipotentiary]

it takes two factors to succeed, innovation, and scale of execution.

you summed it all sir! brilliant! seems to me an epic poetic verse

 

[cnleio]

You should search T 50 Golden Eagle, KFX Program

KAI KF-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And for Engine, South Korea is also quite good, beside has many high tech company, they also have USA in its side.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F404 (built under license by Samsung Techwin[17]) afterburningturbofan

• Dry thrust: 53.07 kN (11,925 lbf)

• Thrust with afterburner: 78.7 kN (17,700 lbf)

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


KFX Cockpit made by Samsung

AESA Development

 

[antonius123]

I've heard South Koreans bragging they are world leaders in memory chips, display technology, civilian ships.

Martian has busted that myth.

In what way did he bust? other than lying, ignorance and downplay other achievement? Dont fall for his idiocy.

Korea can do 14nm finfet, while SMIC the best foundry from China can do the best 28nm.

The earliest SMIC can do the same 14nm is year 2018 => 3 years gap at least!
HiSilicon becomes SMIC's 28nm customer

That already speak a lot about semiconductor technology gap between China and Korea.

Note: China SMIC get 28nm license from IBM.
SMIC to collaborate with IBM on 28-nm | EE Times

Is Samsung’s plan to ramp up 10nm production by the end of 2016 a paper war? | ExtremeTech

 

[Beidou2020]

In what way did he bust? other than lying, ignorance and downplay other achievement? Dont fall for his idiocy.

Korea can do 14nm finfet, while SMIC the best foundry from China can do the best 28nm.

The earliest SMIC can do the same 14nm is year 2018 => 3 years gap at least!
HiSilicon becomes SMIC's 28nm customer

That already speak a lot about semiconductor technology gap between China and Korea.

Note: China SMIC get 28nm license from IBM.
SMIC to collaborate with IBM on 28-nm | EE Times

Is Samsung’s plan to ramp up 10nm production by the end of 2016 a paper war? | ExtremeTech

Korean is doing licensing for semiconductor too. Semiconductor is probably the area China is weakest in.

In display technology, China already has LCD, OLED and Quantum dot technology.

In memory chip technology, I'm not familiar with DRAM and NAND memory chips difference between the 2 countries.

In civilian ship technology, China can design and produce ro-ro ships, oil tankers, chemical tankers and LNG carriers. These are considered some of the most advanced types of civilian ships especially LNG carriers.

 

[antonius123]

Korean is doing licensing for semiconductor too. Semiconductor is probably the area China is weakest in.

Not really!

In fact SAMSUNG give license their 14nm technology to GlobalFoundries!

Developed by Samsung and licensed to GLOBALFOUNDRIES, the 14nm FinFET process is based on a technology platform that has already gained traction as the leading choice for high-volume, power-efficient system-on-chip (SoC) designs. The platform taps the benefits of three-dimensional, fully depleted FinFET transistors to overcome the limitations of planar transistor technology, enabling up to 20 percent higher speed, 35 percent less power and 15 percent area scaling over industry 20nm planar technology.
GlobalFoundries licenses Samsung process tech, grants AMD access to FinFETs - The Tech Report

GlobalFoundries licensed 14nm LPE [low-power early] and 14nm LPP [low-power plus] technologies from Samsung Electronics. However, going forward GlobalFoundries hopes to develop its own manufacturing processes. The combined team of IBM and GF engineers is expected to deliver robust 10nm and 7nm fabrication technologies.
GlobalFoundries develops 7nm and 10nm technologies in-house | KitGuru

And even if Korea get license (we ignore the above FACT just like martian did), still in chip manufacturing mastery - Korea is still ahead China. That is based on fact that China can only produce 28nm (by IBM license) while Korea can produce more advanced 14nm.

Samsung is also having their own patent on the memory chip manufacturing technology as you can see in the patent dispute with Renesas, the technology that China has not poses yet and still seeking through acquisition.

The above facts already show significant GAP between China and Korea in semiconductor technology.

In display technology, China already has LCD, OLED and Quantum dot technology.

How many patent does China has for OLED or Quantum Dot? how good is OLED quality china can produce compared to Korean one? where does the chinese OLED maker get the equipment/processing technology ?

If as good, then why chinese TV maker buy OLED panel from LG instead of buying from chinese BOE / CSOT?

You can't just simplify that 2 country can produce same thing (say : Car) then both countries are at the same technology level of that thing (car). India can make car, Japan can make car doesnt mean that India is on par with Japan on car technology.

In memory chip technology, I'm not familiar with DRAM and NAND memory chips difference between the 2 countries.

In civilian ship technology, China can design and produce ro-ro ships, oil tankers, chemical tankers and LNG carriers. These are considered some of the most advanced types of civilian ships especially LNG carriers.

If China is really already on par with Korea in LNG carrier technology, then why Korea still hold lion share in LNG carrier despite much cheaper LNG carrier from China?

South Korea’s shipyards innovate to defend LNG market share

 

[j20blackdragon]

Largest is not always a measurement of cutting edge technology. How about quality? Accuracy? Efficiency? Meeting stringent Standards?

For example:

The accurate response of the control system will maximize the performance.

DX35Z : Doosan Infracore Construction Equipment

Another example:

On September 24, 2014 we successfully unveiled our newest and most advanced range of forklifts powered by our revolutionary new G2 engines at an excellent event at Millbrook Proving Ground in Bedfordshire.
Doosan’s G2 launch event sets a new standard « Doosan Forklifts


Doosan Industrial Vehicle UK launches new environmentally-friendly, cost-effective forklifts using its revolutionary new G2 engine

“The Doosan G2 engine represents a watershed moment in forklift diesel engine design,” concludes Tim Waples. “It is a genuinely innovative approach to the challenge of maintaining performance while meeting exacting emissions standards, and will become the benchmark engine against which all others in the market are measured.”
Using Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC) exhaust treatment technology along with an Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system, and on sale from October, the new range of ‘DPF free’ engines is available in 2.4-litre and 3.4-litre versions

Doosan Industrial Vehicle UK launches new environmentally-friendly, cost-effective forklifts using its revolutionary new G2 engine « Doosan Forklifts

Large is oftentimes necessary when it comes to construction. For example, Here's the Zoomlion ZCC3200NP (with lifting capacity of 3200 ton) hoisting a solid steel containment dome for the nuclear reactor. How do you do this with a small crane?

But seriously? The best you got for me is a tiny excavator and a forklift after everything I showed you?

OK, my turn again.

I counter with the XCMG ET110 Walking Excavator. Notice how it can walk around on legs like the Stalker from Starcraft 2, allowing it to easily traverse steep hills and rocky/uneven surfaces.

I still haven't seen anything that puts South Korea ahead of China in construction.

 

[Beidou2020]

Not really!

In fact SAMSUNG give license their 14nm technology to GlobalFoundries!

Developed by Samsung and licensed to GLOBALFOUNDRIES, the 14nm FinFET process is based on a technology platform that has already gained traction as the leading choice for high-volume, power-efficient system-on-chip (SoC) designs. The platform taps the benefits of three-dimensional, fully depleted FinFET transistors to overcome the limitations of planar transistor technology, enabling up to 20 percent higher speed, 35 percent less power and 15 percent area scaling over industry 20nm planar technology.
GlobalFoundries licenses Samsung process tech, grants AMD access to FinFETs - The Tech Report

GlobalFoundries licensed 14nm LPE [low-power early] and 14nm LPP [low-power plus] technologies from Samsung Electronics. However, going forward GlobalFoundries hopes to develop its own manufacturing processes. The combined team of IBM and GF engineers is expected to deliver robust 10nm and 7nm fabrication technologies.
GlobalFoundries develops 7nm and 10nm technologies in-house | KitGuru

And even if Korea get license (we ignore the above FACT just like martian did), still in chip manufacturing mastery - Korea is still ahead China. That is based on fact that China can only produce 28nm (by IBM license) while Korea can produce more advanced 14nm.

Samsung is also having their own patent on the memory chip manufacturing technology as you can see in the patent dispute with Renesas, the technology that China has not poses yet and still seeking through acquisition.

The above facts already show significant GAP between China and Korea in semiconductor technology.




How many patent does China has for OLED or Quantum Dot? how good is OLED quality china can produce compared to Korean one? where does the chinese OLED maker get the equipment/processing technology ?

If as good, then why chinese TV maker buy OLED panel from LG instead of buying from chinese BOE / CSOT?

You can't just simplify that 2 country can produce same thing (say : Car) then both countries are at the same technology level of that thing (car). India can make car, Japan can make car doesnt mean that India is on par with Japan on car technology.





If China is really already on par with Korea in LNG carrier technology, then why Korea still hold lion share in LNG carrier despite much cheaper LNG carrier from China?

South Korea’s shipyards innovate to defend LNG market share

I've said semiconductor and high-bypass commercial jet engines are the biggest weaknesses for China.

Why does Korean companies license chip technology from US companies if Samsung is so advanced? Samsung license technology from US companies like Martian said, so why do they do this if they are so advanced?

China has LCD, OLED and Quantum dot technology. Unles Korea has a more advanced display technology, then China has caught up in this technology. It's up to you to prove why Korea is ahead of China in this technology. In what way is Korea ahead?

China got into LNG carrier recently thus the low market share but now China has the technology to produce LNG carriers. So how is Korea ahead of China in LNG carrier technology?
Only reason Korea has high market share because they were first but now China caught up in this technology.
It's up to you to prove whether Korean LNG carriers are ahead of Chinese LNG carriers and in what way they are ahead?

What other areas according to you is Korea ahead of China in technology and show me proof. For example, you said in construction Korea is ahead. Show us proof what technology Korea has that China doesn't have.

 

[gambit]

Why does Korean companies license chip technology from US companies if Samsung is so advanced? Samsung license technology from US companies like Martian said, so why do they do this if they are so advanced?

So according to you guys, who probably know nothing about semicon products, licensing means intellectual inferiority...

AMD: x86 license deal with Intel can’t block our merger or takeover [UPDATED] | KitGuru

Advanced Micro Devices has a cross-licensing agreement with Intel Corp. under which the companies use intellectual property (IP) and patents invented by each other.

...the list of IP that is a part of the agreement is constantly updated.

Come on. You know better than that.

A licensee is using someone else's technology.

In this thread, we're comparing the technological level of South Korea and China.

An idiot (Antonius) made the extraordinary claim that South Korea is ahead in technology. It is an absurd proposition. Much of South Korea's technology is licensed from the United States.

If people want to say that US technology is ahead of China, I don't have a problem with that.

When people make the silly claim that South Korea is ahead of China in technology, that's going to really annoy me.

What you said is -- idiotic.

To be 'advanced' does not mean you are ahead of everyone else in everything. No one can do that and no one is that way. Not even US.

To be 'advanced' mean you have the technological foundation to enter certain industries with high confidence that you will accomplish goals and meet expectations, especially if those goals and expectations were set by someone else. So far, China have been playing catch up to South Korea and Japan and essentially STILL is doing catch up. If China can -- and have -- been rewarded certain trophies, like the Nobel Prize, it simply means China is MOMENTARILY ahead of other countries in those fields. It does not mean China is ahead in the core technology of those fields.

I counter with the XCMG ET110 Walking Excavator. Notice how it can walk around on legs like the Stalker from Starcraft 2, allowing it to easily traverse steep hills and rocky/uneven surfaces.

This does not mean China is ahead in technology but is more creative in ENGINEERING.

Do you guys understand the differences between base technology and engineering ?

So what? acquisition and merger is part of growing a company capabilities. Google acquired Youtube and made it better. Same with Lenovo, Thinkpad is a dying brand until Lenovo revived and made it the most popular brand in IT industry. What IBM and Samsung did is royal license. IBM controls the IP and R&D, Samsung simply borrow the tech to manufacture them. Lenovo have full control over how Thinkpad design, operation, and execution. IBM have nothing and no say in how Thinkpad runs now..

The insinuation -- from an ignoramus at that -- is that licensing and buying off competitors does not make one 'advanced'.

But it is funny that if China does it, it means China is 'advanced' while when others, like Samsung, does it, it means they are not 'advanced'. Make up your minds.

 

[Beidou2020]

So according to you guys, who probably know nothing about semicon products, licensing means intellectual inferiority...

AMD: x86 license deal with Intel can’t block our merger or takeover [UPDATED] | KitGuru



What you said is -- idiotic.

To be 'advanced' does not mean you are ahead of everyone else in everything. No one can do that and no one is that way. Not even US.

To be 'advanced' mean you have the technological foundation to enter certain industries with high confidence that you will accomplish goals and meet expectations, especially if those goals and expectations were set by someone else. So far, China have been playing catch up to South Korea and Japan and essentially STILL is doing catch up. If China can -- and have -- been rewarded certain trophies, like the Nobel Prize, it simply means China is MOMENTARILY ahead of other countries in those fields. It does not mean China is ahead in the core technology of those fields.


This does not mean China is ahead in technology but is more creative in ENGINEERING.

Do you guys understand the differences between base technology and engineering ?

Yes, for me if you have to license you are inferior. Especially if you license from a foreign company where government can block it at anytime. You don't have technological security.

I don't consider Nobel prizes as relevant to technology security. Some people place high value on these but I don't. These prizes are judgments made by a panel to award a prize.

For me the most important aspect is technology security. You have the technology by yourself or you don't have it.

Technology security for me means you can independently produce a certain technology without relying on a foreign country or foreign company.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

IMO in another 5 more years or less, the role of China as the world's technological leader will be very obvious and there will be no more argument. Off course disbelievers and detractors will continue to claim China stole those these technologies from others esp.USA but has these nations produced a successful prototype yet. Let me illustrate some of the obvious examples.

1. China should be launching the world first's hack-proof "Quantum Communication satellite" network soon in 2016.

2. While USA military scientists are still experimenting with its own Hypersonic Glide Vehicle after many failures, China DF-ZF popularly known as WU-14 may be soon be on limited production.

World's First Quantum Communications Satellite Launching in 2016 - Boston Commons High Tech

 

[gambit]

Yes, for me if you have to license you are inferior. Especially if you license from a foreign company where government can block it at anytime. You don't have technological security.

I don't consider Nobel prizes as relevant to technology security. Some people place high value on these but I don't. These prizes are judgments made by a panel to award a prize.

For me the most important aspect is technology security. You have the technology by yourself or you don't have it.

Technology security for me means you can independently produce a certain technology without relying on a foreign country or foreign company.

This post simply shows you know NOTHING about technology and that you are filled with misconceptions.

This article is only two yrs old, meaning still very relevant.

China's semiconductor imports exceed $160B, industry still nascent | ZDNet

Xinhua said even Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation (SMIC), which is one of the bigger Chinese chipmakers, is far behind chip giants such as Intel, Samsung Electronics and Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) .

Li Ping, vice president of Wuhan Xinxin Semiconductor Manufacturing Corporation, said China has developed its own "first class semiconductors" but the country was not able to mass manufacture these chips.