Featured China ramps up production of JF-17 fighter jet

[GumNaam]

Rest assured, blk3 would look no different than the blk2 on the outside but inside, it'll be the nastiest surprise it's adversaries would face...I'm 100% sure of it!

 

[M.Bison]

we are told to dream big, but you dream way too big that its a waste of time replying and explaining to you. let me tell you again NO you cannot make a reliable jet engine in next 30 years. Want to give it a start then start with the engine blades and will proceed from there.


Really... So Mr Scientist who is stopping that decision. Is it the PAF. If they are then they surely knows more than you Mr Scientist. They knows not to get into the no go area of Aviation.


It definitely is way more complicated. Beside that nuclear weapons has its own purpose.

There are always limitations but my point is that Pakistan has capable people. If you start slow and work on your RND you will be able to develop better technology. There are many countries that would help Pakistan if it would try to allocate resources and for the development of these technologies. The nuclear bomb was rare tech for the time and only a few countries even had the scientist to achieve that feat. I am certain if Pakistan puts her mind to it she can develop engine tech for Jf-17 and project azm.

 

[LimaCharlie]

we need to get rid of many mirages and F-7s man

Sell the f7s to some poor african country, use the money for new jets
I know it's patheric but so is the condition of our state

 

[araz]

Gas turbine theory is something which is taught to engineering undergrads though, I literally did a report on it and pretty much all the information you need (up to the last 15-20 years or so) is public information or declassified by the US Military and NASA. If a company in Pakistan can hire competent mechanical/material/chemical/software engineers, they could easily develop one.

As I said, its a matter of getting it up to modern standards. Company's starting small though on civillian/drone aircraft could get up to scratch in a decade or two.

Believe me if it was that simple the Chinese would not be struggling till now. Jet engine manufacturing is the pinnacle of industrial development. You dont even have the imdustrial base on which to erect the industry. I dont think Pakistan should venture into engine manufacturing just yet. Rather start with bike, car and truck/tank engines for which we have the demand. We can progress on to turbines for hydroelectric projects as well as Wind mills and once we have the base go into jet and helicopter engines. Even then we will need ro collaborate with multiple nations to keep the economy of scale right for the project to be fruitful.
Without proper project management we will get into difficulties.
A

 

[Flash_Ninja]

Believe me if it was that simple the Chinese would not be struggling till now. Jet engine manufacturing is the pinnacle of industrial development. You dont even have the imdustrial base on which to erect the industry. I dont think Pakistan should venture into engine manufacturing just yet. Rather start with bike, car and truck/tank engines for which we have the demand. We can progress on to turbines for hydroelectric projects as well as Wind mills and once we have the base go into jet and helicopter engines. Even then we will need ro collaborate with multiple nations to keep the economy of scale right for the project to be fruitful.
Without proper project management we will get into difficulties.
A

I agree but china's struggles are more related to creating engines up to modern standards. They have been building jet engines since the 1950's (reverse engineered from Soviet designs) on their own. Pakistan on the other hand has virtually no engine manufacturing at all, so by starting small eventually in a decade or two with military cooperation the industry might eventually be able to create an engine up to spec.

The problem is though, the govt and companies are happy with the easy solution of just importing every single nut and bolt rather than building something from scratch.

 

[mqur1963]

to bring paf in to a good shape you need to invest at least 10 billions. it is out of paf budget.
it is easy to talk but take at least 1 decade to produce an engine which can survive weather speed and others issues.
i work every day on these machines and there is no comparisons between ge and Pratt Watney to even European engine .can these engine run with out overhaul for 50.000 hours or need overhaul in very short time.

 

[The Maverick]

to bring paf in to a good shape you need to invest at least 10 billions. it is out of paf budget.
it is easy to talk but take at least 1 decade to produce an engine which can survive weather speed and others issues.
i work every day on these machines and there is no comparisons between ge and Pratt Watney to even European engine .can these engine run with out overhaul for 50.000 hours or need overhaul in very short time.

Russian engines are cheaper and have good power... But life span is half that of western engines and service beak down more frequent.

This is why India went with General Electric. for Tejas.

 

[denel]

Believe me if it was that simple the Chinese would not be struggling till now. Jet engine manufacturing is the pinnacle of industrial development. You dont even have the imdustrial base on which to erect the industry. I dont think Pakistan should venture into engine manufacturing just yet. Rather start with bike, car and truck/tank engines for which we have the demand. We can progress on to turbines for hydroelectric projects as well as Wind mills and once we have the base go into jet and helicopter engines. Even then we will need ro collaborate with multiple nations to keep the economy of scale right for the project to be fruitful.
Without proper project management we will get into difficulties.
A

Araz, first to start with basic - metal industries is a must - aluminium, steel.

 

[Figaro]

Believe me if it was that simple the Chinese would not be struggling till now. Jet engine manufacturing is the pinnacle of industrial development. You dont even have the imdustrial base on which to erect the industry. I dont think Pakistan should venture into engine manufacturing just yet. Rather start with bike, car and truck/tank engines for which we have the demand. We can progress on to turbines for hydroelectric projects as well as Wind mills and once we have the base go into jet and helicopter engines. Even then we will need ro collaborate with multiple nations to keep the economy of scale right for the project to be fruitful.
Without proper project management we will get into difficulties.
A

People really underestimate the difficulty of gas turbine engines. It is not something you can simply reverse engineer or pour a ton of money into and immediately expect results. On the contrary, it is a process that takes decades, huge material/monetary investments, and massive talent. I really can't think of any aerial technology that is more complex than the gas turbine ... it really makes ballistic missile or even fighter jet development look easy by comparison.

I agree but china's struggles are more related to creating engines up to modern standards. They have been building jet engines since the 1950's (reverse engineered from Soviet designs) on their own. Pakistan on the other hand has virtually no engine manufacturing at all, so by starting small eventually in a decade or two with military cooperation the industry might eventually be able to create an engine up to spec.

The problem is though, the govt and companies are happy with the easy solution of just importing every single nut and bolt rather than building something from scratch.

The problem is by the time Pakistan manages to create that engine, it would probably already be obsolete. If China already had a gas turbine base and took so long (not to mention a huge investment) to make aeroengines, then how would Pakistan manage without any gas turbine base? IMO, the WS-19 will become the basis of Pakistan's AZM project ... why spend the decades and massive sums of money when you can just buy the latest engines?

 

[Flash_Ninja]

People really underestimate the difficulty of gas turbine engines. It is not something you can simply reverse engineer or pour a ton of money into and immediately expect results. On the contrary, it is a process that takes decades, huge material/monetary investments, and massive talent. I really can't think of any aerial technology that is more complex than the gas turbine ... it really makes ballistic missile or even fighter jet development look easy by comparison.


The problem is by the time Pakistan manages to create that engine, it would probably already be obsolete. If China already had a gas turbine base and took so long (not to mention a huge investment) to make aeroengines, then how would Pakistan manage without any gas turbine base? IMO, the WS-19 will become the basis of Pakistan's AZM project ... why spend the decades and massive sums of money when you can just buy the latest engines?

Raad missiles already use a combined turbojet and solid propellant, and unless im mistaken is built in-house by AWC (since importing missile components is problematic). That means there is a base but due to a lack of private-sector involvement, research, and a lack of demand there isnt any incentive to adapt or further develop.

Also the excuse of 'just buying the latest engines' is not really a good enough reason, we used to rely on US tech with the belief that we can just import whatever from them and look at what happened. Its important to have some level of self-reliance in key industries for many reasons.

 

[Figaro]

Raad missiles already use a combined turbojet and solid propellant, and unless im mistaken is built in-house by AWC (since importing missile components is problematic). That means there is a base but due to a lack of private-sector involvement, research, and a lack of demand there isnt any incentive to adapt or further develop.

The turbojet of missiles is very very different from an aeroengine gas turbines.

Also the excuse of 'just buying the latest engines' is not really a good enough reason, we used to rely on US tech with the belief that we can just import whatever from them and look at what happened. Its important to have some level of self-reliance in key industries for many reasons.

I really really doubt Pakistan has the capability to make aeroengines without a massive capital investment and technology transfers, both of which are highly unlikely. You are talking about a country starting from zero with regard to gas turbines. Even if these conditions are satisfied, by the time Pakistan manages to create an aeroengine, it would already have been completely obsolete. Self-reliance is very important but in Pakistan's case, this is really not necessary and frankly is impossible to do. Just look at India's Kaveri as an example ... that engine even had substantial foreign help.

First step in making a jet engine is to Start working on it.

How about develop the infrastructure required to design and test. Hardest part is the metallurgy for turbine blades. Jet engines were develop almost 80 years ago. Issue isn’t creating a jet engine but meeting or exceeding the efficiency and quality requirements for the modern jets.

Pakistan need few millions to set up super computer to Simulate and crunch equations, properties for metallurgy.

Metallurgy will also payoff in developing composite airframe.

Without huge investment that is better spent on other parts of the military and massive technology handovers ... indigenous gas turbine development in Pakistan is not going to happen.

 

[Flash_Ninja]

The turbojet of missiles is very very different from an aeroengine gas turbines.
I really really doubt Pakistan has the capability to make aeroengines without a massive capital investment and technology transfers, both of which are highly unlikely. You are talking about a country starting from zero with regard to gas turbines.

Im aware of this which is why I have said in my previous posts that initially starting small by involving the private sector and creating small drones and civillian aircraft, the industry will (if managed competently) eventually in a decade or two be able to create engines up to a modern standard. I never stated that Pakistan should go into the workshop and make a 5th gen standard engine, im talking about the developement of the gas turbine industry in Pakistan. Also these engines arent just limited to planes, they can be adapted to many other applications like tanks and helicopters, the latter of which can generate enough domestic demand in Pakistan.

Even if these conditions are satisfied, by the time Pakistan manages to create an aeroengine, it would already have been completely obsolete. Self-reliance is very important but in Pakistan's case, this is really not necessary and frankly is impossible to do. Just look at India's Kaveri as an example ... that engine even had substantial foreign help.

Indian defence production is notoriously bad though, their solution to everything is buy buy buy. Im specifically saying that Pakistan should develop its own technology and avoid that mindset entirely.

 

[mqur1963]

to manufacture engine you need more the aluminum and steel

 

[araz]

The turbojet of missiles is very very different from an aeroengine gas turbines.

I really really doubt Pakistan has the capability to make aeroengines without a massive capital investment and technology transfers, both of which are highly unlikely. You are talking about a country starting from zero with regard to gas turbines. Even if these conditions are satisfied, by the time Pakistan manages to create an aeroengine, it would already have been completely obsolete. Self-reliance is very important but in Pakistan's case, this is really not necessary and frankly is impossible to do. Just look at India's Kaveri as an example ... that engine even had substantial foreign help.


Without huge investment that is better spent on other parts of the military and massive technology handovers ... indigenous gas turbine development in Pakistan is not going to happen.

To add perspective to your very good posts and give people an idea of what is financially involved in aero engine making, just a specail steel plant which is what would bea basic need will set us back by 2-3 billion $. China with its established base made an investment of 20 billion dollars into the project and 2 decades of work to get to where they are. Chinese cost of manufacturing remains one of the lowest in the world so this cost would be much higher elsewhere.
A

 

[Danish Moazzam]

Raad missiles already use a combined turbojet and solid propellant, and unless im mistaken is built in-house by AWC (since importing missile components is problematic). That means there is a base but due to a lack of private-sector involvement, research, and a lack of demand there isnt any incentive to adapt or further develop.

Also the excuse of 'just buying the latest engines' is not really a good enough reason, we used to rely on US tech with the belief that we can just import whatever from them and look at what happened. Its important to have some level of self-reliance in key industries for many reasons.

Raads engine is one time use, here we are talking about military aero engines. That need to be operated at extreme conditions and still deliver power on demand.
They also need to be able to run for a few thousand hours. That is the problem. One shot performance is not the goal.
We have industries manufacturing part for Boeing commercial engine. That needs to be updated and brought higher