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china orders 100 more rusian engines bad news for j-10

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February 14, 2009: .Chinese engineers thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s.
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese have encountered many of the same problems the Russians ran into when developing their engine design and construction skills. Russia has yet to match the quality of Western engines, but has been closing the gap more quickly since the end of the Cold War, which made it possible for Western suppliers to provide Russian manufacturers with the best components and manufacturing technology.

China only publicly announced the J-10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in the press releases was that only one J-10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J-10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)
 
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Please post link friend. I think our pak friends on this forum will not agree on these points(coloured red) especially hj786.

February 14, 2009: .Chinese engineers thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s.
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese have encountered many of the same problems the Russians ran into when developing their engine design and construction skills. Russia has yet to match the quality of Western engines, but has been closing the gap more quickly since the end of the Cold War, which made it possible for Western suppliers to provide Russian manufacturers with the best components and manufacturing technology.

China only publicly announced the J-10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in the press releases was that only one J-10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J-10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers.

The J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful. Work on the J-10 began over twenty years ago, in an attempt to develop an aircraft that could compete with the Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s, and the American F-16. But the first prototype did not fly until 1998. There were problems, and it wasn't until 2000 that the basic design flaws were fixed. By 2002, nine prototypes had been built, and flight testing was going forward to find, and fix, hundreds of smaller problems. It was a great learning experience for Chinese engineers, but it was becoming apparent that the J10 was not going to be competitive with the Su-27s/30s China was buying from Russia.

The J-10 looks something like the American F-16, and weighs about the same (19 tons). Like the F-16, and unlike the Su-27, the J-10 has only one engine. Originally, the J-10 used a Russian AL-31FN engine, but China has been working for a decade to manufacture their own version of this, the WS10A. The WS10A is something of an acid test for them, as it is a powerful military engine, and a complex piece of work. Russia refused to license China to produce the AL-31FN, so the Chinese stole as much of the technology as they could and designed the WS10A. This engine has been tested, and officially approved for production, but apparently still has quality control and performance problems.

It's no accident that the J-10 resembles the F-16, because Israel apparently sold them technology for the Israeli Lavi jet fighter. Israel abandoned the Lavi project, because of the high cost and availability of cheaper alternatives (buying F-16s and F-15s from the United States.) But the Lavi was meant to be a super F-16, and incorporated a lot of design ideas from the F-16 (which the Israelis were very familiar with, as they used them, and had developed new components for them.)
 
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Its only engine problems which will be sorted out im sure
 
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Well as long as Russia doesn't stop the sale of the AL31 the J-10 project would smoothly go ahead.

The engine project team would need to produce better results. Lets not mix the two.
 
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Its only engine problems which will be sorted out im sure
Building a top class engine is no joke. No one expected China to pull a rabbit out of a hat here.
 
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Well as long as Russia doesn't stop the sale of the AL31 the J-10 project would smoothly go ahead.

The engine project team would need to produce better results. Lets not mix the two.

if chinese were able to successfully copy al31 then there was no need for repurchase, thing is that if they sell those fighters with al31 to pakistan then things may become jittery for russians themselves
they didnt sold engine tech to India,neither they will to chinese
both projects of j10 and jf17 was based on russian engines
that was a part of mistake chinese did while planning/designing these jets
until and unless they design an engine with better life time and serviceability both jf17 and j10 will not be successful
chna for itself will have al31 but wont sent new jf17 and j10 to pakistan until they prepare a better engine or solve the problems associated with ws10
 
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So is it bad news for J-10 or perhaps PAF? IMO PAF, we would certainly not like more Russian stuff unless we have the guarantee of uninterrupted spares which is close to impossible. Moreover PAF does not seem to be very happy with the performance of the RD-93 and is looking for a western power plant, i don't think PAF will be much interested to acquire another Russian heart into the fighter jets that may become the future back bone of the PAF. Lets keep the fingers crossed.
 
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So is it bad news for J-10 or perhaps PAF? IMO PAF, we would certainly not like more Russian stuff unless we have the guarantee of uninterrupted spares which is close to impossible. Moreover PAF does not seem to be very happy with the performance of the RD-93 and is looking for a western power plant, i don't think PAF will be much interested to acquire another Russian heart into the fighter jets that may become the future back bone of the PAF. Lets keep the fingers crossed.
Agreed..PAF should acquire French Engine if they are willing to sell or maybe the engine which is used in Euro fighter (KJ2000) I i think i read post on this forum that PAF is interested in French and KJ2000 Engine.
 
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Agreed..PAF should acquire French Engine if they are willing to sell or maybe the engine which is used in Euro fighter (KJ2000) I i think i read post on this forum that PAF is interested in French and KJ2000 Engine.
I think it will be more difficult if LCA selects EJ200.(SNECMA has already started work with Kaveri.)
 
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Oh its bad news i thought Chinese Engine will Deliver same as the Russian Engine.

I hope China will come up with something SOON, they just don't give up.

China is the Only Hope For PAF for Future Inductions.
 
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Russia allowed the use of the RD-33 variant on PAF JF-17 because its induction into PAF, that too in large numbers, would pave way for its potential export to innterested countries, the Chinese themselves show no genuine interest in inducting these in to its own AF - a purely economic stand taken by the Russians


However with PAF buying mere 36 odd FC-20s from China and no other export variants being planned, Russia would not be unwise enough to permit the sale of AL-31 equipped FC-20s to Pakistan - makes no economic sense to the Russian
 
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It is not very easy to build and develop a fighter aircraft and especially when you are doing it for the first time. Just like Lca Tejas...but, for both India and China, it will be a great learning curve, and the experience will be valuable for future ventures.

As for the J-10..even if it is junk.. it will sell it to 'allies' and can recover some of the costs..
 
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