China order 123 AL-31

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well China is really a smart country , they have their own engine , plus they are also getting in few hundred extra engines for creation of another quick 100 planes in 1-2 years

 

[JingDong]

It is good for China that Russia is willing to sell AL-31s ..... I don't think this deal has anything to do with trade deficit.

123 x (2 or 3 million USD) = 270 MM USD (approx.)

And that over 3 years .. is only 90 million USD per year.

In fact, even if available, the WS-10A etc. would be atleast as costly to make at AL-31 .....

Most likely, (even if available) WS-10A would be quite costly to make right now .. given really low volumes ..... and the quite large volume production of AL-31.

This part of the relationship is more in favor of China, than in favor of Russia.

Further, at present, Russians given a damn to how many J-10, J-11, J-12 .... J-99 are flying near their Asian borders.
They really want a cool money making opportunities .... anywhere in the world.

Russia would be more interested in selling the complete fighers, which could be a 10 or 12 billion dollar order.
(Agreed, China is unlikely to oblige them with a reasonable money making offer, anytime soon .... but they can dream ).

Engines are just to continue the relationship etc. .... they don't make any money out of it.

The Russians and Chinese both understand this basic fact.

And, therefore China needs to keep the Russian morale (and high hopes) intact .... before they get bored with this peanuts kind of stuff.
(in money terms).

 

[lcloo]

I believe the furthe purchase of Russian engines is that the production line out-put of WS-10A is not able to match production out-put of J-10 and J-11 air-frames. Also initial batches of J-10 and J-11 needs spare engines when original engines are sent for overhaul or have reached end of their useful lives.

Engine production line ( or any other production line of high-tech products) do not go into full swing on first year. Just as development of engine, production lines have to go through tesing stage, evaluation and re-design, pilot production runs and final full production runs.

 

[nomi007]

i think 87 engines for j-20 or for j-10b
because ws-10 is not reliable china still facing problems in this engine
Pakistan had ask china for fc-20 with Russian engines
so that is confirm that 36 engines does Pakistan
my wuestion is that why russia is not transfering the technology to china when india have deep rights to build al-31 & rd-33
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

i think 87 engines for j-20 or for j-10b
because ws-10 is not reliable china still facing problems in this engine
Pakistan had ask china for fc-20 with Russian engines
so that is confirm that 36 engines does Pakistan
my wuestion is that why russia is not transfering the technology to china when india have deep rights to build al-31 & rd-33
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The J-10B and J-11B are designed with the WS-10 serie of engine, to install them with the AL-31 engine will create some big problems, because it is incompatible with its aerodynamic shape.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I believe the furthe purchase of Russian engines is that the production line out-put of WS-10A is not able to match production out-put of J-10 and J-11 air-frames. Also initial batches of J-10 and J-11 needs spare engines when original engines are sent for overhaul or have reached end of their useful lives.

Engine production line ( or any other production line of high-tech products) do not go into full swing on first year. Just as development of engine, production lines have to go through tesing stage, evaluation and re-design, pilot production runs and final full production runs.

And this batch of AL-31 engines was perhaps ordered years before.

lol, it is really tiresome to explain this over again and again to people who want to use these excuses to bash China's engine.

 

[houshanghai]

i think 87 engines for j-20 or for j-10b
because ws-10 is not reliable china still facing problems in this engine
Pakistan had ask china for fc-20 with Russian engines
so that is confirm that 36 engines does Pakistan
my wuestion is that why russia is not transfering the technology to china when india have deep rights to build al-31 & rd-33
Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the engine of carrier aircraft is the most difficult than the single-engine fighter or common twin-engine fighter.however ws10a have proved to be used in j15 carrier aircraft.so the condition of current ws10a is fine now.

j15 carrier aircraft with ws10a

thx Martian

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

conclusion:
1. we still need Russia's technology. thanks to Russia.
2. This doesn't prove that china is not able to manufacture reliable engine, it proves for sure that the production of reliable engines doesn't meet China's need currently, considering that China just recently grasp skills to make high level engine.
3. in situation that war may begin between China and some country, China need to prepare more engines in stock in case of war.

More specifically, it is that we should thank Russia to keep our J-11A and J-10A alive. Anyway, if they refuse to supply us the AL-31 engines for these planes, then we will definitely ignore the copyright of the AL-31 engine, and making those copycat AL-31 engines.

 

[houshanghai]

J11B with WS10A

 

[HongWu]

Look, the situation is very simple for those of us who are not stupid.

(1) We know for sure J-11B, J-11BS and J-15 use domestic engines

(2) We have only seen J-10 and J-10B in Russian engines, but we have seen J-20 in domestic engines

The worst possible situation is that J-10B is not yet ready to use domestic engines, which is not a big deal because the flankers use domestic engines already. The other possible situation is that this batch of AL-31FN will be installed on J-10 but J-10B will use domestic engines instead --> this is speculative right now because we have not yet seen J-10B using domestic engines, but that doesn't mean it won't be revealed in the future!

 

[Mani2020]

mani bro
china will import of al31fn (j10)engine in this time ,not al31f(j11)engine
speed,the mod of chinese aviation forum.he said that the reason of j10 not using ws10 is CAC.ws10a is no preblem. otherwise ,ws10a were not used in j11b,j11bs,j15.

Houshanghai thx for your reply i just missed the n part while writing ,my point was al-31fn , as yo said CAC is not using ws10 for J-10 then doesn't it mean that paf FC-20's will also not see ws-10 , also the lack of confidence of CAC may alos effect paf's decision to go for ws10 in that case paf is left with only two options either to go for russian engine (only if russia allows n thats a big question mark) or to wait till they are confident enough to use ws10 ,both cases are not feasible for PAF

 

[misterme2]

Well i guess China rising is just a smoke screen. No hi-tech innovation whatsoever. There is a reason why Japan is the favorite of Asia.

Dude our comps have hole like swiss cheese. They use a variety of methods such as hacking, humnit, and foriegn collaboration (Pakistan, possibly Turkey). Oh yeah I almost forgot Theft in the US and in other countries where security may be lax.

 

[houshanghai]

Houshanghai thx for your reply i just missed the n part while writing ,my point was al-31fn , as yo said CAC is not using ws10 for J-10 then doesn't it mean that paf FC-20's will also not see ws-10 , also the lack of confidence of CAC may alos effect paf's decision to go for ws10 in that case paf is left with only two options either to go for russian engine (only if russia allows n thats a big question mark) or to wait till they are confident enough to use ws10 ,both cases are not feasible for PAF

Beyond all doubt，al31 is more mature than the current ws10a.maybe PAF was very satisfied with rd93 of JFT now.so paf was more confident of al31fn. In addition,there are a development of good relations between pakistan and russian now,finally,paf chosed to a more mature al31 engine for PAF fc20.

 

[Akasa]

No, that's just a rumor. They had a twin engine idea on the drawing board at CAC, but that got scrapped with J-20.

Another single engine variant? Unless they are going to put drastic airframe changes like an internal weapons bay or something, I really see no point.

And do explain what does "scrapped with J-20" mean. J-20 is not scrapped.

 

[Akasa]

The problem with China's engines is not that they haven't been developed yet; it's that they are largely untested, sometimes unreliable, and will have to undergo lots of tests to root out the problems.

China currently has not one but several indigenous turbofan programs:
- WS-10/A/B/G
- WS-12/B
- WS-13/A
- WS-15

It shows that China does not need more indigenous engines, but simply more time and testing to perfect its current engine programs.