China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[aliyusuf]

J-31 is a good 8 to 10 years away and also it is going to be costly by PAF/Pakistan standards. Even after acquisition, its going to take couple years more (at the least) to gain FOC.

Too long a time to go on banking on current fleet types till then.

JF-17 production, despite tall claims by the so called experts, has been very slow over the years.
Block-III prototype has not even been built yet, so it too is some years away from being inducted into the PAF and gaining FOC..

Primarily (apart from a couple of new modifications) the current under production Block-II is what the current Block-I was supposed to be but fell short of that mark. The Block-II production completion and the upgrade of current Block-Is to Block-II level is going to take a while.

The need for shortening the capabilities gap is real and present today and that gap and need is only going to grow the longer we wait for the J-31.

J-10B comes with an estimated 1000 T/R modules AESA today.
AESA is a big leap forward and J-10B brings that capability today.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[graphican]

Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.

It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.

I think there is a need for some 3 squadrons of advanced 4th gen fighters in our inventory before 5th gen would start coming. @MastanKhan has been advocating that and I too find there are sufficient grounds to believe that.

Now which advanced 4th gen (4.5 gen) fighter get is procured? I think the possible contenders are F-16 Block-52, J-10Bs and Russian Su-35.

Pakistan should save money and buy j31.

10 years is too long of a planning.. we need something in next 2-3 years time frame. But personally, I see a war coming before MODI leave his chair in India.

 

[Rahil khan]

Instead of going after another platform, additional vipers should be inducted on priority basis as a stop gap procedure. Another couple of squadrons of vipers would be ideal in the ever changing situations of our near future.

 

[sathya]

Yeah I too think 5 generation aircrafts will be bought in small numbers for the first wave of bombing or fighting
but the bulk work will be done by 4 th generation fighters.

So there is no stop gaps.

 

[Hurter]

SU-35 would be much better option.

 

[VelocuR]

Pakistan decide confirmly:

- JF-17 Block 2 (progress)
- JF-17 Block 3 (design phase and testing costly)
- F-16 (seeking more or old second hands)
- J-31 (very high interested to join)

- J-10B/A (cancelled despite many experts claimed)

 

[Super Falcon]

Highly doubt it, even as a stop gap. With the near death of the Indian Rafale deal, there is no longer an urgent need.

It's already been said before, PAF will most likely go straight for a 5th Gen. If a stop gap is needed, PAF will opt for more second hand f-16s.

Better opt for J 10 than F 16 remember we lower f 16 purchase in 2004 becoz we have J 10 in mind

 

[CHI RULES]

I read once in defence journals of Europe and US, Pakistan was interested and evaluated Eurofighter Typhoon. What happened to that?

We need an aircradft like Eurofighter. J-10 is very similar to JF-17 so it does not affect or multiplies force for PAF.

Wit AESA. IRST , latest EW suite and super maneuverability I doubt that j10b or latest versions are less capable than F16 rather as per limited info they are even much better than block 52 F16s. Further please elaborate how the hell our F16s shall compete with even 4.5th gen semi stealth fighter jets without AESA and IRST features.

If we will get J10b or latest version our PAF experts opinion shall be there in case of extra features as we did in the past. The J10 version if acquired now shall be useful for at least 20 or more years. Similarly in near future we may go for same engine in our expected future Jets i.e J10, J31 and JF17 block-II/III.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

Better opt for J 10 than F 16 remember we lower f 16 purchase in 2004 becoz we have J 10 in mind

J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...

We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds

 

[aliyusuf]

J-10B has superior maneuverability, more payload, built-in IRST / EOTS and its AESA has an estimated 1000 T/R modules ... and even if JFT-Block-III gets AESA it will have to do with lesser number of T/R Modules due to space constraints in the nose (hence less capable AESA).

Most importantly ... it is available now and it gives us AESA ... which is a big leap.
AESA are less susceptible to jamming and will fare better than APG-68v9 of the Block-52+ and MLUed F-16s and the KLJ-7-II of the Thunder in adverse EW conditions.

5th gen fighter is a good 8 to 10 years away. What is PAF going to fill the capability gap with viz-a-viz IAF till the acquisition of the 5th gen fighter? Block-III is not going to be the answer as it probably will be arriving some years too late. Also don't forget IAF too will be getting its T-50 based 5th gen fighter (despite its current problems).

 

[CHI RULES]

J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...

We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds

Pak if want to go for J31 then may not require heavier fighters. Further in defensive role we require capable 4.5th gen fighter jets like J10b/c with AESA, IRST and latest EW suits even to challenge 5th gen fighters. We will get JF17 block III true 4.5 th gen fighters almostin same time period when J31 shall be available,

We should not make Pak graveyard of F16s. Even their upgrades are also not easily available especially for Pak.

 

[princefaisal]

Pakistan should not waste its limited money on J10 B .. Because J10 Isn't giving any extraordinary advantage to our current f16 and Future JF17 fleet ... JF 17 can fire every thing which J10 B can ..

In order to gain superiority try to focus on 5th generation fighter with few 4++ generation fighters ...

better to go for more F16 with V upgrade

Mirage can also fire any thing which JF-17 can fire. So better to increase more cheap mirages.

 

[Super Falcon]

J10 don't give us any extra advantage over our current F16 and Jf17 fleet .. we are improving JF17 mean it can fire anything that J10 have ... More over adding an extra kind of bird in inventory can create logistics and support problems ...

We should go for 5th generation or heavier 4th generatino birds

Yes agree with your logic but we must not buy any more F 16 waste of money on a het which we have

 

[Viper0011.]

Mirage can also fire any thing which JF-17 can fire. So better to increase more cheap mirages.

I am not sure if you know specs on Mirages.....the radar used on them is pretty close to being an obsolete tech, the system is 90% manual with extensive pilot workload on stuff, compared to a pilot flying a -16 or the JFT. The workload to maintain and manage the aircraft gets replaced by digital sensors. Avoinics and flight management in the Mirage is like your Motorolla's older cell phones, the big one with a foot long antenna on top, from the late 80's. The -16, -15, -18 are like IPhones, VERY user friendly. The JFT is a Chinese version of the IPhone with inputs taken from the Pakistani -16 for its cockpits layout design and still extremely user friendly.

The concept behind 4th and 4.5 gen jets is to minimize pilot's workload so he's more focused on fighting the war, not constantly looking at old switches, knobs and all. The best thing for Pakistan to do, it to expedite its JFT block III. If that's not happening, then acquire more -16's or FC-20 (ideally J-xx but that's a couple of years away).

better to go for more F16 with V upgrade

That should be the way to go. Acquire more -16's in numbers with more AMRAAM's. Stock up on spares for 1 year, so you are not worried about the sanctions and you have time to adjust. I doubt there ever will be sanctions on Pakistan again. With its economy booming, sanctioning Pakistan would mean we are stopping US companies from being more profitable. Plus, both, the US and Pakistan have matured in their relationships I think, many things and issues are now discussed and worked out between the two governments. So that's always good.

Overall, getting more -16's makes perfect sense (both common sense and strategic sense). Get what you can use from DAY 1. FC-20 will require its own setup, tactics, maintenance facilities, training and all that. -16 doesn't need any of that. It flies in, refueled and armed, and theoretically, a pilot can fly it right out into combat using current SOP's.

The investment should go to a J-31 type platform with TOT or semi TOT. In the future, if there is a lot more money, than get J_xx or SU-35's. JFT Block II and III should be able to provide similar capability compared to FC-20.

 

[CHI RULES]

I am not sure if you know specs on Mirages.....the radar used on them is pretty close to being an obsolete tech, the system is 90% manual with extensive pilot workload on stuff, compared to a pilot flying a -16 or the JFT. The workload to maintain and manage the aircraft gets replaced by digital sensors. Avoinics and flight management in the Mirage is like your Motorolla's older cell phones, the big one with a foot long antenna on top, from the late 80's. The -16, -15, -18 are like IPhones, VERY user friendly. The JFT is a Chinese version of the IPhone with inputs taken from the Pakistani -16 for its cockpits layout design and still extremely user friendly.

The concept behind 4th and 4.5 gen jets is to minimize pilot's workload so he's more focused on fighting the war, not constantly looking at old switches, knobs and all. The best thing for Pakistan to do, it to expedite its JFT block III. If that's not happening, then acquire more -16's or FC-20 (ideally J-xx but that's a couple of years away).

Dear Sir we should request for a break for abt years required to get FC20/J10B. Can Pak F16s be capable for about next 20 to 25 Years. May be in flying condition but definitely with out AESA and Irst definitely shall not be in position to even counter Indian Jets with PESA radars let alone Rafaels. Do Paf in current position capable enough to counter Indian threat effectively. I think any jet without AESA and Irst will be useless in near future whether F16 or JF17.

Pls do consider fact that F16 block 52s due to more weight is relatively lees manueverable than previous versions. Further can Pak go for AESA upgrade even on Block 52s answer is big no., same answer I got in the past by mature members.
Your comments shall be appreciated regarding our F16s not having IRST and AESA.