China may export J-10B fighters with Russian AL31FN-S3 engines to Pakistan

[Mani2020]

well you are going to be even more satisfied with the new chines engines. besides you need to get to know them any way . as the j31 will be powered by Chinese engines as the Russian engines are underpowered. so i would think Pakistan would get the Chinese engines to familiarise them selfs so when the j31 arrives Pakistan is just that one step more prepared for its arrival.

There seems no rationality in switching to Chinese engines when you have developed infrastructure for rd 93 and yor current fleet is already flying with these besides it would be insane for paf two operate jf17s with two types of engines. But yes when another Chinese aircraft which is to be bought comes with a Chinese engine then that would be a totally different thing.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

PAF Should definitely be looking to procure J31 but it will take time to be mature and fully operational.AS IAF is also increasing its strength by inducting 4 n 4.5 Generation planes French as well as Russian made.So PAF should also induct some more 4 n 4.5 generation planes. Available options are F16 and J10. Let see wha PAF decide to further induct.

 

[AliWaqar]

Paf Walay soye howey hain kya Yar wo hum sab sy zyada Aur behter janty hain Beysabrey na bano Sabar karo Jo hoga nazar ah jaye ga

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

it would be insane for paf two operate jf17s with two types of engines.

Jf-17 B (Dual seat) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.

 

[araz]

There is still room for 4++ gen fighters in the world to compete with 5 gen. This is the reason Boeing has upgraded the F-15 & F-18's. Same is the thing with Russia Su-35's and Mig-35's. Euro Fighter block 3, Saab Gripen NG and Rafale are being purchased and upgraded.

J-31's and other 5 Gen aircraft are not going to available till 2020 - 2030 and would last till 2050. Where as the 4++ gen are also looking to be in the market till this time.

Agreed but with one proviso. If you have the aircraft in your inventory already then it makes sense. If you dont have the aircraft why increase your workload and the complexity of inducting a new platform when it does not bring anything new on to the table. The next acquisition should be a fifth generation fighter rather than wasting money on a 4th generation fighter. On that basis to me more 16s make more sense but J10 does not.
J11is however a different kettle of fish altogether and its acquisition for the naval role would be a sensible role PROVIDED the navy has enough resources to induct run and support the project. As the resources are not there I would have thought, we would continue developing JFT and acquire used/new 16s as time allows.
I also think we should replace the PGs with JFT for commonality of platcorms and rely on the 2 and wait for the J31/equivalent fighter.
Araz

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

When you talk about a fighter jet's performace you talk about complete package and not just aerodynamics because an aicraft with good aerodynamics is of no good if it doesnt have good avionics and weapons package... so everything was in that context

Regarding Saab gripen, no it wasn't because of Indian mmrca... if you monitor the course of it. It was early 2000s when it was evaluated by paf but then since USA lifted embargo we went for f16s as we were already operating them besides if you read or watch the interview of ACM tanveer he clearly stated that we can't handle such complex technology o Saab gripen at this point in time, now why he said that is another debate.

as per your post regarding Russians offering of a customized engine variant for j-10 exactly supports my point. If russia can offer this now why wouldnt have they in 2006 or so had paf showed intent, just a little push was required from China and Russia would have given it to China...

Since it was offered in 2006 and now it's 2015 we already have wasted 9 years and haven't yet finalized a thing because j-10 has never been our priority.. had it been paf would have reacted in a much more prompt way. even if there was something for j-10 offering of j31 now will make it disappear too.


Never denied that, did I? Being tested and been matured are two different things and like it has been said paf is quite satisfied with Russian engines so they won't be switching to Chinese engines.. mostly it would be for China's own use or for export to other countries in case prospects have any issues with Russian engines

I agree with what you are saying ... Complex technology was for face saving...If PAF could operate Star Fighters in the 50's out of Peshawar then they could easily operate Gripen. This kind of statement was also given at the time PAF evaluated the Eurofighter Typhoon...

Russia would have done some thing like that for China but it would have been asking too much from them for PAF. Now the things are very different. At the time PAF and Pakistan was too much into USA, There were many things that could have been taken as US were in a situation they did not like in Afghanistan and could have given some stuff like the F-18's and its engine if PAF would have asked or even the same PW110 engines as F-16's but they never asked them. They were willing to remove the sanctions because it was in their interest and they did offer some other stuff...

 

[Mani2020]

Jf-17 B (twin engine) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.

Jf17 b with twin engines. now where did that come from? I have no idea to be honest. Must be a hypothetical aircraft similar to jf17 stealth version as speculated by fanboys but had no reality

I agree with what you are saying ... Complex technology was for face saving...If PAF could operate Star Fighters in the 50's out of Peshawar then they could easily operate Gripen. This kind of statement was also given at the time PAF evaluated the Eurofighter Typhoon...

Russia would have done some thing like that for China but it would have been asking too much from them for PAF. Now the things are very different. At the time PAF and Pakistan was too much into USA, There were many things that could have been taken as US were in a situation they did not like in Afghanistan and could have given some stuff like the F-18's and its engine if PAF would have asked or even the same PW110 engines as F-16's but they never asked them. They were willing to remove the sanctions because it was in their interest and they did offer some other stuff...

Do you know f-18s were evaluated by paf back in 80s but instead paf opted f16? So why would have paf gone with the similar aircraft after approx 20 years, there was a reason for not purchasing it at first place. And the idea of not asking US engines was a good one, if we would have gotten engines from US it would have again made us totally dependent on US and the idea of being independent would have totally gone down the drain... paf played smartly, they only went for the things whose alternative wasn't available with China... the reason for ordering more f16s in limited numbers not only paved the way for getting hands onto latest American missiles but also for mlu kits and old f16s...

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Agreed but with one proviso. If you have the aircraft in your inventory already then it makes sense. If you dont have the aircraft why increase your workload and the complexity of inducting a new platform when it does not bring anything new on to the table. The next acquisition should be a fifth generation fighter rather than wasting money on a 4th generation fighter. On that basis to me more 16s make more sense but J10 does not.
J11is however a different kettle of fish altogether and its acquisition for the naval role would be a sensible role PROVIDED the navy has enough resources to induct run and support the project. As the resources are not there I would have thought, we would continue developing JFT and acquire used/new 16s as time allows.
I also think we should replace the PGs with JFT for commonality of platcorms and rely on the 2 and wait for the J31/equivalent fighter.
Araz

There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.

If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.

This open up a new pandora box...

Jf17 b with twin engines

It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)

Jf17 b with twin engines. now where did that come from? I have no idea to be honest. Must be a hypothetical aircraft similar to jf17 stealth version as speculated by fanboys but had no reality


Do you know f-18s were evaluated by paf back in 80s but instead paf opted f16? So why would have paf gone with the similar aircraft after approx 20 years, there was a reason for not purchasing it at first place. And the idea of not asking US engines was a good one, if we would have gotten engines from US it would have again made us totally dependent on US and the idea of being independent would have totally gone down the drain... paf played smartly, they only went for the things whose alternative wasn't available with China... the reason for ordering more f16s in limited numbers not only paved the way for getting hands onto latest American missiles but also for mlu kits and old f16s...

I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.

I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.

If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.

I agree export orders would have been a problem...

 

[Mani2020]

There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.

If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.

This open up a new pandora box...


It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)


I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.

I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.

If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.

I agree export orders would have been a problem...

You yourself have answered your query in last line of your post...

Being offered is one thing and the ability to afford it is another.. even paf was offered Rafael and eurofighter but we couldn't simply afford them or at least couldn't afford them in large numbers similar quantity of just 18 as in case of f16s wouldn't have made sense in case of f-15 typhoon or rafale... it made sense for f16s because we were operating them already

Regarding mirage 2000s yes that was an opportunity missed we should have bought them back then independent of f16s

 

[Mo12]

Jf-17 B (Dual seat) is based on french snecma engines so PAF is looking to have two different engines.

How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?

It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

it made sense for f16s because we were operating them already

Ideal situation could be if PAF is able to get a total of 50 Block 50/52's along with the available aircraft bringing total number of F-16's to 146-150 aircraft.

How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?

It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.

Deal is already signed...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Can we see a copy of the contract so raw can verify

 

[Blue Marlin]

There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.

If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.

This open up a new pandora box...


It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)


I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.

I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.

If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.

I agree export orders would have been a problem...

i agree with most of what you said but f15's offered to pakistan? not a chance i think boeing would not even bother offering it as pakistan can't even afford it and it would look bad on Boeing to even offer it to Pakistan. no just no.

Ideal situation could be if PAF is able to get a total of 50 Block 50/52's along with the available aircraft bringing total number of F-16's to 146-150 aircraft.


Deal is already signed...

How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?

It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.

what engine are you thinking of? the m88 is way to under powered for a jf-17. the m88 is made for a dual engined jet

How will a Chinese jet get a French engine?

It will be very difficult to get a fighter jet engine, from all countries that Pakistan can use in the Chinese jets.

you must be mistaken i heard that saudi arabia may want the jf17 with ej200 engines because they already operate them with the typhoon.
JF-17 Presses On After News of Egypt's Plans

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

what engine are you thinking of? the m88 is way to under powered for a jf-17. the m88 is made for a dual engined jet

Yes...
This engine has been chosen because of 100kg lower weight then the one currently being used in the JF-17.
Accommodates the second Pilot.

i agree with most of what you said but f15's offered to pakistan? not a chance i think boeing would not even bother offering it as pakistan can't even afford it and it would look bad on Boeing to even offer it to Pakistan. no just no.

There are many references available on PDF regarding F-15 offers...Boeing X32 was offered by President Bush but it was refused...

 

[araz]

There are some in favor and some against... Here the issue is how fast is the development process from 5th to 6th gen.
What we know is that drones have been made of existing fighter aircraft for target practice in the past hence 5th gen pilotless aircraft is called 6th gen.

If you consider this then can one skip 5th gen by acquiring a cheaper 4++ fighter and then directly induct 6th gen when they are mature and cheaper.

This open up a new pandora box...


It is a mistake I ment JF-17 B (twin seat)


I know the reasons why F-18's were refused for the F-16's. However the new F-18's are no way comparable to the original ones. F-15's though they were not offered to Pakistan in the 80's were also offered later on in the 2000's and again recently but have been rejected because of high operating costs.

I agree F-16's have been the back bone of Pakistan Air Force and they have preferred them over the Mirage 2000's...Though there are many who think not taking M2K's was a mistake as they lost the option of losing out on French technology which they had with the Mirage III & V's.

If licence production of US made engines was signed then like Iran they could have continued building them as new sanctions would not have had retrospective effect.

I agree export orders would have been a problem...

I agree that the transition from 5th to 6th generation will not take long. However we need to get on the band wagon of the 5th generation fighter as the stealth technology on which the next generation fighters will be based needs to be acquired along with satellite cover. I don't want to sound heartless but the value of life in Pakistan is too low for the powers that be to worry too much about it. it is however a futile debate as no one can judge the speed at which technology is growing and maturing.
The M2k saga is a sorry story in the history of PAF. However we could either have paid through our noses to get an aircraft which we would have been crying about as it would have become prohibitively expensive to maintain as some of the other Air arms have found out or wait and see how the waters flow. As has been related the offer was accepted 90 days after the fall of the first BB government but the french chose to withdraw the offer. To me it sounds like connivance on both the Pakistani and the french sides to fleece us. Interestingly PAF has re evaluated the M2K on 3 successive times since and opted not to buy it. If we had gone for it it would have become pointless developing JFT and PAF rightly chose to go for its own aircraft with the advantage of upgradability and affordability.

Yes...
This engine has been chosen because of 100kg lower weight then the one currently being used in the JF-17.
Accommodates the second Pilot.



There are many references available on PDF regarding F-15 offers...Boeing X32 was offered by President Bush but it was refused...

If PAF chooses a foreign engine other than the RD93 series I personally think it would only be for a buyer and not for itself. This is my personal opinion as the engine change would incur a cost in time and money. PAF would rather wait for a better engine from the same source than go for an EU engine to preserve its independance. However if someone wants to pay for it that's fine.
Araz