China Lost World War II

[CCP]

I'm sorry, my personal view is that China was an independent country at 1945 after WWII.
if CCP don't agree, welcome to open a thread to discuss it. I'll not attend.

Why should I open a new thread？ what kind of logic is it?

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

Why should I open a new thread？ what kind of logic is it?

I think it's out off topic.

 

[CCP]

I think it's out off topic.

Ok... if you think so.

 

[Nick81]

Communism was a new rising power to oppose the evil colonial system

Soviet Union - The Red Terror, The Great Purge
China - Land Reform, The Great Leap, The Cultural Revolution
Cambodia - Khmer terror
Bulgaria
East Germany
Romania
North Korea
Vietnam
Ethiopia
Hungary

Total death toll between 58-94 million

I think the mass killings under Communism far outweigh any claims to being a bulwark against colonialism/imperialism. It was a nice slogan till the killings began.

 

[Aepsilons]

Problem is not so simple.

From time 1968-1972, China would like to take hegemony position of USA in South East asia. It is true stategia of China. China was upset when Vietnam is unificated. Vietnam tried to do balancing in Sino-Soviet split. But it was useless. China used Khmer Rouge to make military impression on Vietnam.

Vietnam joined to COMECOM in 1978, when Khmer Rouge attacked us step by step, more and more aggresively on border, in Cambodia was fully with Chinese military adviser.

Under embargo of USA, we have no choice other than sided closer to Soviet Union.

Of course , I can understand the Viet Minh's situation. Frankly speaking it was an error in judgment for the U.S. To help France reclaim Indochina. Vietnam should have been embraced into a democracy early on.

Btw: currently is there any Japanese that can predict correctly what will happen to the world and to Japan ??

No. The future is too unsure. lol.

 

[Place Of Space]

Soviet Union - The Red Terror, The Great Purge
China - Land Reform, The Great Leap, The Cultural Revolution
Cambodia - Khmer terror
Bulgaria
East Germany
Romania
North Korea
Vietnam
Ethiopia
Hungary

Total death toll between 58-94 million

I think the mass killings under Communism far outweigh any claims to being a bulwark against colonialism/imperialism. It was a nice slogan till the killings began.

I elide other nations, because I don't know the very details.
China
Land Reform: in the condition, land reform was very necessary. Nationalist Party's fail was mainly due to the wrong land policy. When Nationalist Party moved to Taiwan, they started to change and accept the similar land reform. If they did that in mainland, they wouldn't lose government.
The Great Leap: this is a totally wrong policy, I admit. China at that time didn't have the technology level, they had the strong will, but didn't have the ability. Fortunately, when government realized the policy was wrong, they stopped it immediately after 2-year operation.
The Cultural Revolution: This is really two-sides thing. The revolution improved many bad Chinese traditions: such as gender inequality,such as some strange superstitions; the negative side is breaking down elite cultural, low tolerance to dissenting opinions.

China didn't have what you state mass killings. In the beginning of 1960's, China broke out famine crisis due to climate disaster, USSR stopped assistance, focus on industry, etc. By the way, you please introduce some information about the great famine in India before 1970's which caused 10 millions Indian die.

 

[TheTruth]

In my view, America didn't start the fight, but actually tried to moderate everything from the beginning and tried to calm tensions between China and Japan. Japan started the fight with America and America ended it. Period.

It is a KNOWN FACT that the United States supplied nearly 100% of Japan's oil supplies between 1930 and October of 1940. War material flowed until 1938. They had "stern words" but took no serious action even after Japan invaded Manchuria.

It is a FACT that Japan would have run out of oil within months had the Americans cut off supplies, making Japanese gains beyond the fringe coast in China impossible.

So-called anti-Westernism doesn't need that name. To be morally upright and to understand history is to be anti-Western. China is not an isolated case, look at India and Africa and the indigenous Americans and the Islamic World who are still suffering today due to policies put in place by Western powers hundreds of years ago.

Look at the scale of devastation inflicted upon those peoples. That is what you are ideologically supporting.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Soviet Union - The Red Terror, The Great Purge
China - Land Reform, The Great Leap, The Cultural Revolution
Cambodia - Khmer terror
Bulgaria
East Germany
Romania
North Korea
Vietnam
Ethiopia
Hungary

Total death toll between 58-94 million

I think the mass killings under Communism far outweigh any claims to being a bulwark against colonialism/imperialism. It was a nice slogan till the killings began.

Congratulations. India is a great place without land reform, almost as good as sub-Saharan Africa. Almost though.

There is no way to break the back of oligarchy without land reform and public ownership. Even today 100000 tenant farmers commit suicide every year in India because of inability to pay rent on a bad harvest. In China it is irrelevant what harvest goes on: the farmers keep their land.

 

[Viva_Viet]

No. The future is too unsure. lol.

Base on Marx theory:" the development of society is a natural process ".

what is a natural process ?? its just like you were born, grow up, you need food-water-warm shelter to survive, get sick sometime and finnaly, you die. Thats why he guessed that the Capitalist finnaly will die and replaced by a better society such as Communist society. (Unlucky for Marx, the Capitalism still survive due to US made lots of money by selling weapons in WW2 )

Base on the natural process fo the society, we are in the time the society get a bad sick, so, who have enough money to buy food-water-medicine will continue to survive, who dont will collapse

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

That is utter nonsense and revealed an uneducated mind.

The core of Marxism which communists in both the USSR and China tried to implement is: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

That has nothing to do with income tax or public education.


Then change the label to the Chinese Socialist Party. Do not pander to the simple minded by dancing around with nonsensical phrases like 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics'. WTF is that ?

If you did understand Marxism, socialism is the initial stage of communism following capitalism. The official ideology of the CPC in the constitution itself is establishing China as a socialist state, while communism was regarded as a very far away objective.

 

[anon45]

It is a KNOWN FACT that the United States supplied nearly 100% of Japan's oil supplies between 1930 and October of 1940. War material flowed until 1938. They had "stern words" but took no serious action even after Japan invaded Manchuria.

It is a FACT that Japan would have run out of oil within months had the Americans cut off supplies, making Japanese gains beyond the fringe coast in China impossible.

It is not a fact unless you can provide proof. At the minimum Japan operated for 4 years without US oil

It is also a fact that the US provided support to China before our entrance into WW2, and favored China in the dispute.



U.S.-Japanese Foreign Policies Before World War II

So-called anti-Westernism doesn't need that name. To be morally upright and to understand history is to be anti-Western. China is not an isolated case, look at India and Africa and the indigenous Americans and the Islamic World who are still suffering today due to policies put in place by Western powers hundreds of years ago.

Look at the scale of devastation inflicted upon those peoples. That is what you are ideologically supporting.

Bullsh*t, moralizing a single country or culture as 'bad' shows you really don't understand history, your bias prevents you. Yes Western colonization of the rest of the world led to the suffering of hundred of millions under colonial rule and economic exploitation, but Western innovation and practices has led to improved quality of life for billions! How much of the techology you take for granted today would still exist without the scientific method?

As for Africa and India today...

Frankly much of Africa's and India's problems today are self-inflicted. Remember the US put an end to European colonization after WW2, and India gained ints independence around the same time period.
You can only go so long blaming outside people without doing anything yourself before it becomes your own problem. Given China's history. you should be familiar.

If Europe and Japan could build themselves up out of the nothing after WW2, These certain African countries with corrupt leaders have less and less excuse.

 

[Nick81]

By the way, you please introduce some information about the great famine in India before 1970's which caused 10 millions Indian die.

There was no such famine. The last major famine in India was under British rule. There were, however, severe food shortages in the 1960s...when the US helped by providing emergency grain shipments. Lesson learnt, India has been self-sufficient in food supply since then. I think your propaganda machine spreads such stories about the great Indian famine killing 10 million people to justify all the death and displacement caused by your own land reforms.

 

[TheTruth]

It is not a fact unless you can provide proof. At the minimum Japan operated for 4 years without US oil

Wrong, Japan went and got East Indies oil after you finally cut off their artery. US diplomatic "support" of China was even more worthless than the League. From your article: "The U.S. threatened no military or economic retaliation. In truth, the United States did not want to disrupt its lucrative trade with Japan."

Western innovation and practices has led to improved quality of life for billions! How much of the techology you take for granted today would still exist without the scientific method?

The "scientific method" didn't spring out from nowhere. The real advances came when trade and military needs pushed Western science into the arms of the state, which would have occurred just about anywhere else had the same pressures existed. The West never gave anything for free, developed technology to benefit itself in its rape of 3/4ths of the world, and sold essentially-expired IP at outlandish prices to the developing world once that suited them. No need for thanks.

Frankly much of Africa's and India's problems today are self-inflicted. Remember the US put an end to European colonization after WW2, and India gained ints independence around the same time period.

Only because it suited their interests. The US also supported apartheid in South Africa, propped up dictators, and spawned civil wars all over the continent as it continues to fatally siphon capital away from every country there.

You can only go so long blaming outside people without doing anything yourself before it becomes your own problem. Given China's history. you should be familiar.

China has picked herself up by her bootstraps, with one arm and with that arm broken. The truth is the truth.

If Europe and Japan could build themselves up out of the nothing after WW2, These certain African countries with corrupt leaders have less and less excuse.

Except the US didn't have a policy of goading conflict in Europe, forgave billions in debts, and funneled tens of billions to fellow whites in Europe. Otherwise, Europe would be a hellhole today despite having stolen trillions.

There was no such famine. The last major famine in India was under British rule. There were, however, severe food shortages in the 1960s...when the US helped by providing emergency grain shipments. Lesson learnt, India has been self-sufficient in food supply since then. I think your propaganda machine spreads such stories about the great Indian famine killing 10 million people to justify all the death and displacement caused by your own land reforms.

The fact is you had a higher death rate for decades than China did in her worst years.

 

[Nick81]

Congratulations. India is a great place without land reform, almost as good as sub-Saharan Africa. Almost though.

There is no way to break the back of oligarchy without land reform and public ownership. Even today 100000 tenant farmers commit suicide every year in India because of inability to pay rent on a bad harvest. In China it is irrelevant what harvest goes on: the farmers keep their land.

Land reform is not the same as killing hundreds of thousands in the name of reform. You are confused. You assume that no reform is possible without death and displacement. Communism teaches that to justify the destruction it inevitably wreaks upon a nation. The major source of well-being for farmers will come through the use of modern technology, better access to capital and less dependence on agriculture through economic diversification. Why do you think your governmet has been building new cities at such speed and forcing people to live in these new cities? Surely not as part of "land reform"?

The fact is you had a higher death rate for decades than China did in her worst years

Oh I got a bit confused. I thought we were discussing massacre by Communist dictatorships of their own people. Death, on the other hand, is a natural event.

 

[TheTruth]

Oh I got a bit confused. I thought we were discussing massacre by Communist dictatorships of their own people. Death, on the other hand, is a natural event.

Oh I got a bit confused. I thought we were discussing the scale of misery inflicted upon the people of India by her incompetent government as well as wild, savage thugs murdering tens of thousands of their fellows in sectarian conflict, bride burnings, race riots and police actions.