China Lost World War II

[IsaacNewton]

Chinese don't understand this.

Soviet didn't captured Manchuria to help China, it invaded Manchuria to gain some last minute spoil of war, which included Japanese held Kuril Islands + Sakahlin islands, influence over Manchuria + Korea, 600k Japanese PoW for slave labor in Siberia, ect.

Ultimately, the army the Soviets used to invade Manchuria was to gain concession over China (both KMT and Future CCP), which includes independence over Mongolia (became a Soviet slave), mineral rights over XinJiang, all of Japanese industrial equipments in Manchuria, ect.

Later USSR used China in Korean War, and overcharged China for technical assistance.

So much for being a victor of WW2.

 

[Nick81]

Just like basketball, China made a team with America at WW2 and won the game together, maybe China get fewer points, but still won together, that's also the reason why China is one of the permanent members of UN. India want to join the little club, but what contribution have India done to the world except population？ UK took the land from China (Which China never accept.), what rights does India have to claim it. UK stealed tea from China to give it to India, why does India still so proud to plant it?

Sorry, just speak too much German and typied in a hurry and not like you, English is not my mother language, I can't use it properly.

About the first part of your post - yes, India has been trying to get into the Security Council. The SC is a body with limited authority, and if you could enlighten me as to what China has achieved by being on the SC all these years I will reassess my belief that it is a useless position. Apart from periodically vetoing various SC resolutions on rogue countries, China has not been able to push any meaningful agenda by being in the SC, and I don't see what India would achieve in the same position.

As for the part where you accuse us of contributing nothing much except population, I am in partial agreement. Indians, when forced to work within the constraints of a sub-optimal work environment within their country haven't achieved all that much. But then, what have Chinese working within China been able to achieve, apart from flooding the world with cheap goods that would have been made somewhere else in its absence? By contribution, you mean original ideas and technologies that benefit all of mankind. In that, unfortunately, all eastern Hemisphere countries except Japan and recently Korea have not done much. All the wonderful tech that China has been flaunting of late is stolen/borrowed from the West, and we are also in the same boat, except that we steal much less and borrow instead.

About disputed territories, well, China has lots of disputes with lots of countries. It is an expansionist power, and India is not the only country forced to confront this reality. The Japanese, the Vietnamese, the Philippinos, will all bear testimony to this fact. As for the Indian territory that you claim, it is ironic that Arunachal is the most peaceful state in an otherwise restive region. Do you know why? Because they know what happens when China "integrates" autonomous regions. They have witnessed the cultural genocide, repression and ethnic cleaning in Tibet, and do not want to meet a similar fate. You should focus on Taiwan, which lies right across the Straights and see what you can do with it.

Finally, about tea. Thank you for allowing us to plant your wonderful discovery. I do not expect a similar thanks for allowing you to use the primary religion that we gave you, because China has trampled upon its own culture and eradicated its past in the "Cultural Revolution". So we continue to be proud of what you gave us, whereas you have lost what we gave you and can be proud of it no more.

 

[Place Of Space]

No. The Viets do not believe in Marxism/communism. They stopped believing that nonsense about 20 yrs ago. The Viets on this forum, like the Chinese, would like people to think that Marxism/communism still matter in their respective countries, but that is nothing but a facade they put up so they do not have to admit that their countries screwed up -- royally. The Viets here talks as if no one been to VN. I have and I know better.


Foundation of what ?

What made Marxism/communism attractive initially was the 'eat the rich' message Marxists are very good at trumpeting. But when it comes to economy and managing a country, Marxists proved to be no better or even worse than who they displaced. Show me a single successful Marxist economy that was on a par with any of the mediocre Western country. Remember, in a Marxist economy, private property is forbidden. Excess is not allowed.

Let me ask you this: If I worked hard and cut 10 cords of wood but YOU only cut 5 cords of wood, what give YOU the right to take the excess of my labor ?

That is the core of Marxism: That no one is allowed to have personal excess, even from the sweat of his brows, lest there be inequality.

So show me a single Marxist/communist economy that have been even marginally competitive with any mediocre democratic/capitalist economy.

You should understand the background when Communism popularly accepted. It's European colonial system era before that. Would Europe gave up consciously the huge interests in vast Asia, Africa, let them go? No, definetly not. The France was beat out crap, they still wanted to re-occupy Vietnam after WWII. Holland in Indonesia, Britain in India, Malaya the similar situation. The West still want to keep the colonial system, this is the background of that age. Communism was a new rising power to oppose the evil colonial system. It's not Europe gave freedom, independence to South Asia, Southeast Asia, Africa, middle east, it's because Europe faced the fast growing communism influences in those area. So they had to give them independence to maitain some limited interests, otherwise, nothing would be left.
The West was forced to compete with communism nations in those former colonial areas, so they started to change their policy. Change direct voilent dominion into soft power manupulation. And cold war also provided a relative safe international enviroment to those newly established nations.

Don't talk about those economic crap. Tell me how many capitalism nations' economy nowadays are like bu//shit. America neighbor, Haiti, my neighbor Philippines.....

 

[gambit]

By your standards the US abandoned true capitalism as described by Victorian Britain and Adam Smith by implementing the income tax and public education lmao. Turns out that income tax and public education are tools of government that are nonideological in nature just as prices and markets are tools of government that are also nonideological in nature. Marx never denied the existence of the market mechanism, after all.

That is utter nonsense and revealed an uneducated mind.

The core of Marxism which communists in both the USSR and China tried to implement is: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

That has nothing to do with income tax or public education.

Chinese have socialism as a guiding moral principle not only in government but in everyday life, is successful with it, and that is what is very scary to extremists - because it threatens their world view. Most Americans (real Americans who work minimum wage jobs while putting themselves through school) don't give a ****. If China doesn't interfere with the lives of ordinary Americans, China would simply be a curious trading partner with restaraunts all over, just as the US to China would be a curious tourist place that exports movies if not for the military hardware parked 600 km off our coastline.

Then change the label to the Chinese Socialist Party. Do not pander to the simple minded by dancing around with nonsensical phrases like 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics'. WTF is that ?

You should understand the background when Communism popularly accepted. It's European colonial system era before that. Would Europe gave up consciously the huge interests in vast Asia, Africa, let them go? No, definetly not. The France was beat out crap, they still wanted to re-occupy Vietnam after WWII. Holland in Indonesia, Britain in India, Malaya the similar situation. The West still want to keep the colonial system, this is the background of that age. Communism was a new rising power to oppose the evil colonial system. It's not Europe gave freedom, independence to South Asia, Southeast Asia, Africa, middle east, it's because Europe faced the fast growing communism influences in those area. So they had to give them independence to maitain some limited interests, otherwise, nothing would be left.
The West was forced to compete with communism nations in those former colonial areas, so they started to change their policy. Change direct voilent dominion into soft power manupulation. And cold war also provided a relative safe international enviroment to those newly established nations.

Don't talk about those economic crap. Tell me how many capitalism nations' economy nowadays are like bu//shit. America neighbor, Haiti, my neighbor Philippines.....

I probably understand Marx and communism better than you do, despite the fact that you are living in a supposedly 'communist' country.

You are avoiding my question, which strikes at the foundation of Marxism: If I worked hard and cut 10 cords of wood but you cut only 5 cords of wood, what gives you the right to take the excess of my labor ?

It is a simple question, is it not ? Every time there was a Marxist/communist revolution, those who have more than his/her neighbors are usually accused of being exploitative of the masses, of being a landlord, of thievery, and so on. Kangaroo courts are held and these 'rich' people are executed. Look at your own history for that, pal.

About the first part of your post - yes, India has been trying to get into the Security Council. The SC is a body with limited authority, and if you could enlighten me as to what China has achieved by being on the SC all these years I will reassess my belief that it is a useless position. Apart from periodically vetoing various SC resolutions on rogue countries, China has not been able to push any meaningful agenda by being in the SC, and I don't see what India would achieve in the same position.

As for the part where you accuse us of contributing nothing much except population, I am in partial agreement. Indians, when forced to work within the constraints of a sub-optimal work environment within their country haven't achieved all that much. But then, what have Chinese working within China been able to achieve, apart from flooding the world with cheap goods that would have been made somewhere else in its absence? By contribution, you mean original ideas and technologies that benefit all of mankind. In that, unfortunately, all eastern Hemisphere countries except Japan and recently Korea have not done much. All the wonderful tech that China has been flaunting of late is stolen/borrowed from the West, and we are also in the same boat, except that we steal much less and borrow instead.

About disputed territories, well, China has lots of disputes with lots of countries. It is an expansionist power, and India is not the only country forced to confront this reality. The Japanese, the Vietnamese, the Philippinos, will all bear testimony to this fact. As for the Indian territory that you claim, it is ironic that Arunachal is the most peaceful state in an otherwise restive region. Do you know why? Because they know what happens when China "integrates" autonomous regions. They have witnessed the cultural genocide, repression and ethnic cleaning in Tibet, and do not want to meet a similar fate. You should focus on Taiwan, which lies right across the Straights and see what you can do with it.

Finally, about tea. Thank you for allowing us to plant your wonderful discovery. I do not expect a similar thanks for allowing you to use the primary religion that we gave you, because China has trampled upon its own culture and eradicated its past in the "Cultural Revolution". So we continue to be proud of what you gave us, whereas you have lost what we gave you and can be proud of it no more.

Very good, sir.

 

[Place Of Space]

That is utter nonsense and revealed an uneducated mind.

The core of Marxism which communists in both the USSR and China tried to implement is: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

That has nothing to do with income tax or public education.


Then change the label to the Chinese Socialist Party. Do not pander to the simple minded by dancing around with nonsensical phrases like 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics'. WTF is that ?


I probably understand Marx and communism better than you do, despite the fact that you are living in a supposedly 'communist' country.

You are avoiding my question, which strikes at the foundation of Marxism: If I worked hard and cut 10 cords of wood but you cut only 5 cords of wood, what gives you the right to take the excess of my labor ?

It is a simple question, is it not ? Every time there was a Marxist/communist revolution, those who have more than his/her neighbors are usually accused of being exploitative of the masses, of being a landlord, of thievery, and so on. Kangaroo courts are held and these 'rich' people are executed. Look at your own history for that, pal.


Very good, sir.

It's you avoid my question. Would capitalist give freedom and independence to vast Asia, middle east, Africa if they didn't face the communism influences? What power could stop the evil colonial system? Except for Communism, any other obvious choices during mid 20th century?
What you said10 cords, 5 cords of wood is about technoloy. When jobs will been done by high-yield robots, any tools, it's not a big problem at all.

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

Chinese don't understand this.

Soviet didn't captured Manchuria to help China, it invaded Manchuria to gain some last minute spoil of war, which included Japanese held Kuril Islands + Sakahlin islands, influence over Manchuria + Korea, 600k Japanese PoW for slave labor in Siberia, ect.

Ultimately, the army the Soviets used to invade Manchuria was to gain concession over China (both KMT and Future CCP), which includes independence over Mongolia (became a Soviet slave), mineral rights over XinJiang, all of Japanese industrial equipments in Manchuria, ect.

Later USSR used China in Korean War, and overcharged China for technical assistance.

So much for being a victor of WW2.

it's very sad situation for China at that time.
I don't think China had a choice. no industry, only manpower. too weak to play the game.
but a poor victor is better that a loser.
at least China got its independence. this already satisfy most Chinese people.

 

[xunzi]

But we sure did better than the hapless Filipino, the Vietnamese, or the Indian. LOL

 

[CCP]

it's very sad situation for China at that time.
I don't think China had a choice. no industry, only manpower. too weak to play the game.
but a poor victor is better that a loser.
at least China got its independence. this already satisfy most Chinese people.

Not until 1949 CCP defeated KMT.

1945-1949 China is still controlled by US.

for example:
中国海关总税务司/Chinese Maritime Customs Service (1854-1950)
Chinese Maritime Customs Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All Inspectors-General/ 海关总税务司 are British and US people.
(First 3 terms were Britsh last 2 terms were US people.)

Inspectors-General, full and officiating[edit]
# Incumbent Start of Term End of Term
1 Horatio Nelson Lay 12 July 1854 15 November 1863
2 Sir Robert Hart 15 November 1863 20 September 1911
– Sir Robert Bredon 20 April 1908 17 June 1910
– Sir Francis Aglen 17 June 1910 25 October 1911
3 25 October 1911 31 January 1927
– A. H. F. Edwardes 31 January 1927 31 December 1928
4 Sir Frederick Maze 8 January 1929 31 May 1943
– C. H. B. Joly 8 December 1941 1 March 1943
– Kishimoto Hirokichi 8 December 1941 15 August 1945
5 Lester Knox Little 1 June 1943 January 1950

It was stopped by CCP at 1949 May.

 

[Viva_Viet]

That described communist countries -- TO THE BONE.

"Enthusiasm plus ignorance equal to destruction" : V.I.Lenin

We are mentioning about pple like you, old man. Short vision, living in delusion, lying about Ho Chi Minh. Thats only bring destroction to your own life

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

Not until 1949 CCP defeated KMT.

1945-1949 China is still controlled by US.

for example:
中国海关总税务司/Chinese Maritime Customs Service (1854-1950)
It was stopped by CCP at 1945 May.

controlled by US? then why US didn't stop the civil war?
Any party unify China would do it.
no one dislike money.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Yes, I must admit NiceGuy really taught me a lot ! I enjoyed the ODA debate with that guy, which left me corrected and appreciative of his remarks. In regards to his suggestions on the fragility of protectionism, well, that's true as well.

Btw: currently is there any Japanese that can predict correctly what will happen to the world and to Japan ??

 

[biendong]

But we sure did better than the hapless Filipino, the Vietnamese, or the Indian. LOL

Don't troll meaningless here.

in WW II, our Dai Nam emperor Bao Dai is existed and Viet Minh gerrilla Groups has fought counter both France colonial and Japanese army here in Vietnam.

in WW II, China shared same fate like Vietnam. Pynoy and India, no more.

Viet Minh regained full independence for Vietnam by ourselves in second September 1945..

 

[CCP]

controlled by US? then why US didn't stop the civil war?
Any party unify China would do it.

no one dislike money.

KMT was not for sure. It is still a dog of US right now.

You may learn Mao's paper " 别了司徒雷登“ .

That is the time CCP reject to accept all the unfair treaties that KMT signed with US .

no one dislike money.

US promised more money to those 4 big families.

Four big families of the Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Speeder 2]

Talk about spin...

Not only is it spin, you are spinning BS. The US fought Imperial Japan since the attack on Pearl Harbor. I guess revisionist history in China is worse than we thought. Next yr the revisionist history will have China who nuclear bombed Japan.

Go play with your dirt and leave the intellectual work for us who have larger brains. Thank you.

 

[DoubanJam.Yee]

KMT was not for sure. It is still a dog of US right now.

You may learn Mao's paper " 别了司徒雷登“ .

That is the time CCP reject to accept all the unfair treaties that KMT signed with US .

I'm sorry, my personal view is that China was an independent country at 1945 after WWII.
if CCP don't agree, welcome to open a thread to discuss it. I'll not attend.