China Lost World War II

[TheTruth]

And the funny thing is that USA was the only winner in Sino-Soviet Split, and seems like Russia-CN
Enthusiasm plus ignorance equal with destruction : V.I.Lenin

Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia and Laos were the winners when Deng sent armies in to kill off 150,000 VN terrorists.

 

[gambit]

Lastly, Vietnam may hold and value the impact of Communist spirit, as she should,...

No. The Viets do not believe in Marxism/communism. They stopped believing that nonsense about 20 yrs ago. The Viets on this forum, like the Chinese, would like people to think that Marxism/communism still matter in their respective countries, but that is nothing but a facade they put up so they do not have to admit that their countries screwed up -- royally. The Viets here talks as if no one been to VN. I have and I know better.

Why did it failed? Because most nations accepted communism were poor or former colony nations, the foundation was not as strong as Western nations. America didn't launch the Vietnam war, would Vietnam be such terrible those years? Hey, if America attacked Italy or Finland for no reason, it would be a mess as well.

Foundation of what ?

What made Marxism/communism attractive initially was the 'eat the rich' message Marxists are very good at trumpeting. But when it comes to economy and managing a country, Marxists proved to be no better or even worse than who they displaced. Show me a single successful Marxist economy that was on a par with any of the mediocre Western country. Remember, in a Marxist economy, private property is forbidden. Excess is not allowed.

Let me ask you this: If I worked hard and cut 10 cords of wood but YOU only cut 5 cords of wood, what give YOU the right to take the excess of my labor ?

That is the core of Marxism: That no one is allowed to have personal excess, even from the sweat of his brows, lest there be inequality.

So show me a single Marxist/communist economy that have been even marginally competitive with any mediocre democratic/capitalist economy.

 

[Aepsilons]

We have no reason to thank America. They were your puppeteers as they are now, commanding you to obstruct Asia's rise to their benefit.

Therein goes the thinking that is so unique in your diatribe --- this so called Anti-Westernism. Meta-analytically speaking, and as one who has been acquainted with the Chinese perception (I have taken graduate classes over summer semesters and participated in seminars at Tsinghua) , as well as the American point of view (by the fact that I live and teach here in the United States), I think this allows me a broad minded applicable view of the historical situation.

For one, let me correct you that there was no such thing as America 'commanding' Japan to obstruct Asia's rise. Japan was at that particular time in history, a military power that was hell bent on ruling Asia for itself. Japan, at that time, saw the Americans, the French, the Dutch and the British as foreign occupiers of territories and lands was for 'Asia' alone. (Asia, for Asians -- as the saying went).

The TRUTH of the matter is the following:

1. Japan was an Imperialist Power
2. Japan Invaded China
3. America tried to prevent Japan's expansion into China
4. America threatened embargo
5. Japan had a political crisis -- and underwent a Military Coup'de'tat
6. Japan Attacked America (which was a, pardon my french, a MASSIVE Royal $crewup)
7. America Fragmented the Japanese Empire in less than 4 years.

In my view, America didn't start the fight, but actually tried to moderate everything from the beginning and tried to calm tensions between China and Japan. Japan started the fight with America and America ended it. Period.

 

[gambit]

"Enthusiasm plus ignorance equal with destruction" : V.I.Lenin

That described communist countries -- TO THE BONE.

 

[Aepsilons]

That described communist countries -- TO THE BONE.

And that's why Cambodia is no longer communist. And Vietnam is, well, changing.

 

[gambit]

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach . (hope thats a good joke, bro ...but I still cant stop laughing )

Communists can do neither.

If a communist is a teacher, he can do so by using the sorry examples of his life and of his country that adopted communism and became the third world.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia and Laos were the winners when Deng sent armies in to kill off 150,000 VN terrorists.

Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia and Laos also were the winners in buying CN's relics

 

[Aepsilons]

Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia and Laos also were the winners in buying CN's relics that Japan looted from CN's cities like Nanjing

Bro, don't mention that word. Please. Don't mention anything about Nanjing.

I beg you.

Let's stay on topic.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Bro, don't mention that word. Please. Don't mention anything about Nanjing.

I beg you.

Let's stay on topic.

Oki, bro, just ignore idiot comments and let's continue discussing about commnism idea. As I said : Truly understanding of what Marx-Lenin said will help you to increase your vision that make you predict correctly what will happen in the future (Vnese need to understand Ho Chi Minh's ideal if they wanna know what will happen to VN) .

As I remember, you laughed when hearing Nice's prediction about the fall of CNY, but now, every one CNY is inevitable. So why you could not see what happen to CNY while NiceGuy could ?? its all about who having better vision.

 

[Nick81]

1.55 million Japanese army died in China!

number of injuries and deaths in China warland more than 2.55 Million ( 89% of whole Japanese army injuries and deaths in WW2)

in 1945, we got 1.28 million Japanese POW ( 50% of whole Overseas Japanese POW)

Provide your source or correct your information. And "official Chinese figures" don't count as a credible source, mind you.

 

[Aepsilons]

Oki, bro, just ignore idiot comments and let's continue discussing about commnism idea. As I said : Truly understanding of what Marx-Lenin said will help you to increase your vision that make you predict correctly what will happen in the future (Vnese need to understand Ho Chi Minh's ideal if they wanna know what will happen to VN) .

As I remember, you laughed when hearing Nice's prediction about the fall of CNY, but now, every one CNY is inevitable. So why you could not see what happen to CNY while NiceGuy could ?? its all about who having better vision.

Yes, I must admit NiceGuy really taught me a lot ! I enjoyed the ODA debate with that guy, which left me corrected and appreciative of his remarks. In regards to his suggestions on the fragility of protectionism, well, that's true as well.

 

[CCP]

1931年918事变到1932年底，美国向日本供应了1.81亿美元的军火 当时的美国总统胡佛在提到918事变时，是这样说的“日本方面也有些道理。我们与它的友谊是由来已久，根深蒂固的。我们应 该友好地考虑日本的处境“

　　据日本官方统计，仅1937年上半年日本就从美国进口钢铁130万吨；“七七事变”后的一年内，美国运往日本的军事战略物资竟 占日本全部销耗的92%。

　　1937年，美国出售给日本的飞机价值为248.4万美元，而在实行所谓‘道义禁运’以后的1938年，美国售给日本的飞机价值却 【增加】到1745.4万美元

　　1938年，苏联提供给中国贷款1亿美元，购买苏联武器。而1938年美国给日本1.25亿美元【借款和信贷】，以购买美国的机床 等战略物资，加强日本侵华的战争机器。

　　1939年“美国输至日本军用物资达1．869亿美圆，约占该年美国对日本全部输出额的86%。

　　1940年，美国输至日本的军用物资达1．9亿美圆，约占美国对日本全部输出额84%。

　　自1937年到1940年，美国输至日本物资总额共9.867亿美圆，其中军用物资总值占7.039亿美圆

　　1940年8月间发给的对日出口的石油产品许可证要比1940年的前6个月所发的总和还要多。在生铁和钢的供应方面情况也 与此相似。1940年8月间, 有 30多万吨的生铁、废铁等物输往日本,这个数目约与1940年前半年所供应的数目相等。

　　1941年头3个月,美国卖给日本的飞机汽油比1940年同一时期要多131%。



美国人也知道，“维持日本战争机器运转的一半以上的原料，特别是铁、钢和石油，都是从美国获得的”
-American Anthropology, 1921-1945

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The Party cannot afford to call itself anything else.

Think about it for a moment. Every country needs a set of moral principles as guidance, at least on the surface anyway. The US have democracy and capitalism. The Western countries shares the same even though each may execute these ideals differently.

Communism is the political expression of Marxism, or to put it another way, communism is the executor of Marxism. The Soviet Union and China failed at communism, which discredited Marx. As far as we know, and I could be mistaken, China have not made an official statement that communism failed. For China, it was embarrassing enough to adopt capitalism as necessary for national survival, it would be even worse for face if China had to publicly admit that communism failed.

The Party have 'communism' in its label simply because there is nothing else to replace it.

By your standards the US abandoned true capitalism as described by Victorian Britain and Adam Smith by implementing the income tax and public education lmao. Turns out that income tax and public education are tools of government that are nonideological in nature just as prices and markets are tools of government that are also nonideological in nature. Marx never denied the existence of the market mechanism, after all.

Chinese have socialism as a guiding moral principle not only in government but in everyday life, is successful with it, and that is what is very scary to extremists - because it threatens their world view. Most Americans (real Americans who work minimum wage jobs while putting themselves through school) don't give a ****. If China doesn't interfere with the lives of ordinary Americans, China would simply be a curious trading partner with restaraunts all over, just as the US to China would be a curious tourist place that exports movies if not for the military hardware parked 600 km off our coastline.

 

[CCP]

东方慕尼黑

对日本发动的全面侵华战争，美国政府不仅不谴责，反而口口声声说要保持“友好公正的立场”。美国务院甚至宣称，“中日之间的武装冲突给和平和世界进步事业带来严重的打击”，双方应负“共同的责任”，公然偏袒日本侵略者。

英国政府采取了同美国政府一样的立场。“七·七事变”爆发后，英国便邀请美国共同 “斡旋”，替日本转达所谓的“和平条件”，即要蒋介石政府投降。1937年9月12日，中国就日本全面侵华向国际联盟提出申诉，要求世界各国制裁日本。然而，当时把持国联的英国对此百般拖延和阻挠，敷衍了事，企图把中国的申诉推出国联之外。1939年4月，英国驻华大使往返于日本和蒋介石政府之间，积极策动“中日议和”。与此同时，日本则在中国的沦陷区内进行反英活动，并寻找借口封锁了天津的英国租界。日方声称，若“英国不同日本全面合作”，日本将不解除对英租界的封锁。在日本的强大压力下，英国决定向日本让步。1939年7月2日，英国政府发表声明，表示“承认中国的现状和在华日军的特殊需要”。7月17日，英国政府又同意关闭滇缅公路3个月，切断了所有通过香港援华物资的运输。

美国和英国不仅在政治上姑息纵容日本侵略者，还在经济上通过贸易渠道向日本提供大批战略物资。据日本官方统计，仅1937年上半年，日本就从美国进口钢铁130万吨；“七·七事变”后的一年内，美国运往日本的军事战略物资竟占日本全部消耗的92%。英国不仅供给日本大批军用器材，还租船帮助日本进行军事运输。

为了维护各自的利益，日本和美国在亚洲问题上相互利用，讨价还价。日本为了在侵占中国部分领土后继续向亚洲南部推进，提出日美“共同防共”，要求美国承认“满洲国”，同意日军留驻华北和内蒙古和迫使蒋介石投降等条件，以便独霸中国，并为侵占南洋做准备。美国由于其战略重点在欧洲，因此采取了同日本妥协的政策。美国虽然同意“共同防共”、承认“满洲国”、诱使蒋介石投降等条件，但同时表示不能放弃对蒋介石的影响，力图保住它在中国的利益。此外，美国还要求日本遵守“机会均等、门户开放”政策，并极力要求日本维持西南太平洋地区的现状，以保护美国以及英、法、荷等国既得的殖民利益。

结果
从1941年3月至日本偷袭珍珠港，美日双方共举行了60多次谈判，妄图实现美日妥协、牺牲中国、反共反苏的“东方慕尼黑阴谋”。然而，美日之间的肮脏交易最终以日本偷袭珍珠港而中断，美英策划的“东方慕尼黑阴谋”宣告破产。

东方慕尼黑_百度百科

 

[biendong]

You have to understand the geopolitical reasons for this, my friend. The situation in the Submekong after 1975 was due in part to the extension of the Sino-Soviet Split. Vietnam followed the Soviet Model, whereas Kampuchea followed the Mao Zedong Model. In fact, Pol Pot actually tried to re-create Mao's Cultural Revolution in context to Cambodia, unfortunately for the Cambodians, over 1/4th of their population died in the killing fields.

Problem is not so simple.

From time 1968-1972, China would like to take hegemony position of USA in South East asia. It is true stategia of China. China was upset when Vietnam is unificated. Vietnam tried to do balancing in Sino-Soviet split. But it was useless. China used Khmer Rouge to make military impression on Vietnam.

Vietnam joined to COMECOM in 1978, when Khmer Rouge attacked us step by step, more and more aggresively on border, in Cambodia was fully with Chinese military adviser.

Under embargo of USA, we have no choice other than sided closer to Soviet Union.