China leaves US trailing in race to build warships，Beijing’s shipbuilding capacity 230 times greater than American yards, US intelligence admits

[jhungary]

Huge is how huge? Define to me how by looking at a picture, you can guesstimate it is less than 60k tonnes. I am serious, show us the math. If this was true, my company wouldn't need to pay for weighing services since you can fcking look and tell the weight. You probably don't even know the density of different steel grades.

Explain to me how a ship under construction is lacking sea control as per your own definitionz. Remember i specialize in idiots.lol

Huge as in an Aircraft Carrier size. As in you cannot move quick enough to dodge bomb and missile.

How big do you think Type 076 is? A Frigate Size??

And can Type 076 launch fighter or any Air-to-Air Platform? If not, then they don't have sea control capability, and aren't you claim to be designing ship, so you design a ship on the go while you are building it? Oh I want to add well deck and an aircraft hanger in this ship and let's redo everything and put it back to dry dock? And you call yourself a ship engineer??

And there, I fixed it for you

 

[Han Patriot]

Huge as in an Aircraft Carrier size. As in you cannot move quick enough to dodge bomb and missile.

How big do you think Type 076 is? A Frigate Size??

This is the definition of sea control, it is used for a fleet not a single ship. Btw, you are not explaining anything, an aircaft carrier can be 20k tons or 40k tons or 60k tons or 100k tons. Explain to me how you can look and know it is less than 60k tons. Lolol

Are you saying a 60k ship cannot achieve sea control working as a group in a fleet or you don't understand the concept at all? Lolol

An oil tanker is 200k tons and it is not carrying planes mate if I am going by your logic.

 

[jhungary]

They are in a better and worse position than the Soviets. They have 70-75% the GDP of the US, and somewhere around 30% of the collective West (North America, Europe, Japan, SK, and Australia). That’s the plus side because the Soviets max out at 40% of just the US.

The negative side, for China, is the Soviets had actual international allies, while China has partners, many under sanctions.

For China, they need to keep their internal economy growing and moving up the technological ladder to keep pace, but to surpass the US and have a chance to pass the collective west, they need stable, sanction proof international partners if not allies. For that they need to get their partners out of sanctions and on the development track (which includes buying more Chinese products like the C-919 airliner)

If the “Chinese Block” can close in on matching the Western Block, they can be ready for a Taiwan war at any given time, because they will have the space to build up forces to match the collective western forces in at least the first island chain.

So a lot comes down to BRI and similar initiatives, to allow them to diversify and keep on growing.

Well, that's hard to do.

It's hard enough for China to find allies in the near region, in fact, it's not even easy to find neutral ground.

On the other hand, all those stable economy have to come from a stable political environment. Otherwise the economic situation may just be as easy to end up like Russia than US.

 

[FuturePAF]

Actually Russia never overtook US in real GDP and PPP, Russia was never the world biggest trading nation, export nation, surplus nation, industrial nation, agriculture nation, minging nation , shipping nation and manufacturing nation.

if your not growing your slowly falling. The Soviet maxed out at 40% and the US leapfrogged them with the use of more advanced tech.

China may have large numbers now but to hold the lead it needs to export more to non-western nations, so it can insulate itself from western political moves to contain its market access. The west can cut off access in large way, very quickly. The goal of near shoring or “friend” shoring is to get this done in the next 5-10 years.

Much of the global south is underdeveloped and poised for massive growth. Africa has 60% of the arable land in the world but not the means to modernize their agriculture. Imagine the business potential for Chinese companies if African countries were stable enough to be able to focus first and foremost on development.

By 2050, it is projected that 25% of the global population will be in Africa and by 2100, Africa will be 40% of the global population.

This is why the Khubjerab railway and the railway modernization and expansion to gwadar seem like a lot of spending for China, but it closes the gap the PLAN has to defend to just between Djibouti and Gwadar for on ward trans-African trans-Sahel rail routes, and massive opportunities for China.

The Chinese brokered normalization (and recent invitation to Brics) between Saudi and Iran is one example of the potential of what China leveraging its potential could do. Expanding this (via a secure land route in Pakistan) to Africa will pay huge dividend for the Chinese economy.

Well, that's hard to do.

It's hard enough for China to find allies in the near region, in fact, it's not even easy to find neutral ground.

On the other hand, all those stable economy have to come from a stable political environment. Otherwise the economic situation may just be as easy to end up like Russia than US.

China can start with the nations it approved to join BRICS. Help them politically, using the UN to get them out of sanctions in exchange for some self-imposed restrictions, and get those economies growing.

 

[jhungary]

This is the definition of sea control, it is used for a fleet not a single ship. Btw, you are not explaining anything, an aircaft carrier can be 20k tons or 40k tons or 60k tons or 100k tons. Explain to me how you can look and know it is less than 60k tons. Lolol

View attachment 950858

Are you saying a 60k ship cannot achieve sea control working as a group in a fleet or you don't understand the concept at all? Lolol

An oil tanker is 200k tons and it is not carrying planes mate if I am going by your logic.

Are you for real? I am talking about individual ship capability. A fleet itself is designed to be controlling a sea, but then as I point out, if you have to task a fleet to do that on a type 076, you are using that fleet in -ve efficiency because that fleet will not and CANNOT MOVE when it is protecting that 076 in operation and do you even have enough ship to pull escort duty? You don't just protect a 076 with a single destoryer or a frigate?

Or Do tell me in what way a Type 076 can deal with threat at seas? Surface Threat (both shipborn and airborne), Sub-surface threat and possibly land OTH threat when it is on the move. With with HJ-12?? If you can't then that particular shio CANNOT PROTECT THE SEA AROUND IT.

it's a very simple concept bruh.

China can start with the nations it approved to join BRICS. Help them politically, using the UN to get them out of sanctions in exchange for some self-imposed restrictions, and get those economies growing.

UN route would never work, because you need the other people to okay that, namely the French, the American and the Brits. Which mean BRICS would just be either China helping everybody.......Because there are no parallel country that can match that, and I assume everyone else beside China is going to ask for a hand out.

 

[beijingwalker]

if your not growing your slowly falling. The Soviet maxed out at 40% and the US leapfrogged them with the use of more advanced tech.

China may have large numbers now but to hold the lead it needs to export more to non-western nations, so it can insulate itself from western political moves to contain its market access. The west can cut off access in large way, very quickly. The goal of near shoring or “friend” shoring is to get this done in the next 5-10 years.

It's already happening, ASEAN now is China's top trading partner. besides, before the west can cut trade ties with China, they need to find an reliable alternative first, many products now are only being produced in China, trade decoupling hurts the west more than the other way around.

 

[nahtanbob]

US naval global domination doesn't look rosy in the future

the Pacific Ocean is a vast one. there is plenty of space at the bottom for all the Chinese ships

 

[Han Patriot]

Are you for real? I am talking about individual ship capability. A fleet itself is designed to be controlling a sea, but then as I point out, if you have to task a fleet to do that on a type 076, you are using that fleet in -ve efficiency because that fleet will not and CANNOT MOVE when it is protecting that 076 in operation and do you even have enough ship to pull escort duty? You don't just protect a 076 with a single destoryer or a frigate?

Or Do tell me in what way a Type 076 can deal with threat at seas? Surface Threat (both shipborn and airborne), Sub-surface threat and possibly land OTH threat when it is on the move. With with HJ-12?? If you can't then that particular shio CANNOT PROTECT THE SEA AROUND IT.

Yes i am for real, i just corrected you by saying 076 is not used for sea control, sea control involves a FLEET, understand idiot? So the fleet will not and cannot move protecting Nimitz too right idiot. Different ships different functions, you expect VLS on a helicopter carrier genius? Do you even understand what you are blurting out?

076 is a god damn helicopter carrier, you are expecting it to have 'sea control' capabilities ? Dumbfck? Just admit you don't understand the concept.

Until now you still have not explained to me how you cab calculate the tonnage just by looking.

 

[jhungary]

Yes i am for real, i just corrected you by saying 076 is not used for sea control, sea control involves a FLEET, understand idiot? So the fleet will not and cannot move protecting Nimitz too right idiot. Different ships different functions, you expect VLS on a helicopter carrier genius? Do you even understand what you are blurting out?

076 is a god damn helicopter carrier, you are expecting it to have 'sea control' alone? Dumbfck? Just admit you don't understand the concept.

oh my god........

Sea Control is not a ship's goal, as in the ship want to control the sea, it's an operational goal, the reason why 076 is not used for sea control is because it lack the capability, but does that mean your operation, any combat operation does not need sea control?

Again, it go back to my original question, you either task a fleet to protect 076 when you deploy them, which drawn resource out form your navy, and hence the NEGATIVE EFFICIENCY, because you need to do more than just sitting outside Taiwan (I am going to use the Taiwan example direct) and launch and recover sorties, some part of your navy would need to be in ground support, some part of your navy are going to do air interdiction, you are going to thin out your navy by protecting these 076 that cannot protect itself, and that's a waste of resource, and why not build one that can do both.

That's my point.

1) how do you estimate tonnage of a ship by just looking at it.

I never said I could, @FuturePAF said that ask him

2) How does a single ship achieve sea control? Lol

That is the problem.

 

[Han Patriot]

oh my god........

Sea Control is not a ship's goal, as in the ship want to control the sea, it's an operational goal, the reason why 076 is not used for sea control is because it lack the capability, but does that mean your operation, any combat operation does not need sea control?

Again, it go back to my original question, you either task a fleet to protect 076 when you deploy them, which drawn resource out form your navy, and hence the NEGATIVE EFFICIENCY, because you need to do more than just sitting outside Taiwan (I am going to use the Taiwan example direct) and launch and recover sorties, some part of your navy would need to be in ground support, some part of your navy are going to do air interdiction, you are going to thin out your navy by protecting these 076 that cannot protect itself, and that's a waste of resource, and why not build one that can do both.

That's my point.



I never said I could, @FuturePAF said that ask him


That is the problem.

FFS, I have been explaining to you 10x, sea control is a FLEET, 076 working as a FLEET determines whether it is effective. Since we don't know what is the composition of that fleet at that moment of time at that selected area, HOW THE FXK will it affect sea control.

Yoh cannot define it is a waste or resource or whether it is effective until you know which area you are operating and at what time of operations and against who, so your basic premise of 076 is not useful for sea control is stupid. It is a FLEET DYNAMIC first and foremost.

Stop changing the topic, how the fvk do you know the tonnage just by looking. Answer me boy wonder!

 

[jhungary]

FFS, I have been explaining to you 10x, sea control is a FLEET, 076 working as a FLEET determines whether it is effective. Since we don't know what is the composition of that fleet at that moment of time at that selected area, HOW THE FXK will it affect sea control.

Yoh cannot define it is a waste or resource or whether it is effective until you know which area you are operating and at what time of operations and against who, so your basic premise of 076 is not useful for sea control is stupid. It is a FLEET DYNAMIC first and foremost.

Stop changing the topic, how the fvk do you know the tonnage just by looking. Answer me boy wonder!

HOW the feck you affect sea control?

IT BLOODY DRAW YOUR FLEET OUT OF OTHER FRICKIN DUTY WHEN YOU ARE IN OIPERATION.

Or you really do think China have unlimited amount of ship to do operation? If you have 10 ships guarding that LHD group, that's 10 ship less you can use for other purpose, you can't run other ops when you are sitting there and protecting the LHD offshore, if this is not a problem then I don't really know what is? Maybe you really do think China have 200 destroyer and 100 cruiser and that is not a problem? I don't know.

If you can have sea control, you don't use ship, or AT LEAST THAT MANY ship to protect your fleet asset, because the AIRCRAFT IN YOUR LHD WILL DO THAT FOR YOU......

Don't ask stupid question if you don't understand the answer.

 

[Han Patriot]

HOW the feck you affect sea control?

IT BLOODY DRAW YOUR FLEET OUT OF OTHER FRICKIN DUTY WHEN YOU ARE IN OIPERATION.

Or you really do think China have unlimited amount of ship to do operation? If you have 10 ships guarding that LHD group, that's 10 ship less you can use for other purpose, you can't run other ops when you are sitting there and protecting the LHD offshore, if this is not a problem then I don't really know what is? Maybe you really do think China have 200 destroyer and 100 cruiser and that is not a problem? I don't know.

If you can have sea control, you don't use ship, or AT LEAST THAT MANY ship to protect your fleet asset, because the AIRCRAFT IN YOUR LHD WILL DO THAT FOR YOU......

Don't ask stupid question if you don't understand the answer.

I think you are the one not understanding the concept. Sea control needs 3 elements, fleet composition, location and time. If at that time the rival fleet is weaker, at the location, you have sea control. Understand dmbass?

So just saying 076 is affecting sea control without knowing the fleet composition, location and time is like saying my car is wet tomorrow without knowing the weather. It is ultimately a FLEET concept not a standalone ship analysis.

You don't even know how or where the fleet is going to used, is it going to be used in tandem with a CBG? Or maybe with destryoyers alone ? Or FFGs alone? Is the rival fleet going to be coming in a CBG? Or maybe it is going to be used in near shore scenarios like Taiwan straits where AD cover is adequate. Get it dmbfck, don't act smart when you are a 半桶水。

Another thing, you still haven't answered me how you can know the tonnage of a ship just by looking at a picture.

 

[jhungary]

I think you are the one not understanding the concept. Sea control needs 3 elements, fleet composition, location and time. If at that time the rival fleet is weaker, at the location, you have sea control. Understand dmbass?

So no air interdiction, no OTH strike capability, oh those item don't exist, in case of Taiwanm, they can't launch sortie or shoot land based anti-ship missile at Chinese Fleet.

So, no, you are wrong.

So just saying 076 is affecting sea control without knowing the fleet composition, location and time is like saying my car is wet tomorrow without knowing the weather. It is ultimately a FLEET concept not a standalone ship analysis.

You don't even know how or where the fleet is going to used, is it going to be used in tandem with a CBG? Or maybe with destryoyers alone ? Or FFGs alone? Is the rival fleet going to be coming in a CBG? Or maybe it is going to be used in near shore scenarios like Taiwan straits where AD cover is adequate. Get it dmbfck, don't act smart when you are a 半桶水。

Another thing, you still haven't answered me how you can know the tonnage of a ship just by looking at a picture.

Bruh, this is what NAVAL AIVATION is for. that is why you have aircraft tasked to do anything from ASW to Shore base control, that has been done since WW2. Or do you really that naive and stupid to believe you bring a fleet and what they do they do, you don't care the square root of jack shit on your enemy?? Or you are thinking somehow the fleet you brought to wat with can change capability mid-way?

Again, we aren't just talking about fleet vs fleet battle, and that's not all that Sea Control encompass, and you are quite naive and honestly stupid to think that it was.

This show you have ZERO understand on how sea control or even naval combat work.

 

[Han Patriot]

So no air interdiction, no OTH strike capability, oh those item don't exist, in case of Taiwanm, they can't launch sortie or shoot land based anti-ship missile at Chinese Fleet.

So, no, you are wrong.


Bruh, this is what NAVAL AIVATION is for. that is why you have aircraft tasked to do anything from ASW to Shore base control, that has been done since WW2. Or do you really that naive and stupid to believe you bring a fleet and what they do they do, you don't care the square root of jack shit on your enemy?? Or you are thinking somehow the fleet you brought to wat with can change capability mid-way?

Again, we aren't just talking about fleet vs fleet battle, and that's not all that Sea Control encompass, and you are quite naive and honestly stupid to think that it was.

This show you have ZERO understand on how sea control or even naval combat work.

BRUH, sounds like a retard speaking. Use Bro please. Hahahah. You say i have zero understanding i say you have zero understanding. I just explained to you the concept of sea control, it is area dependent. Taiwan straits is like 200km from coastal China. Well within AD range, you have no idea how the 076 is going to be used and yet you spewed shit right away. Why am I wrong? You cannot determine sea control based on just ONE SHIP. Understand idiot?


You still haven't answered my question, how do you know the tonnage of a ship just by looking.?

 

[jhungary]

BRUH, sounds like a retard speaking. Use Bro please. Hahahah. You say i have zero understanding i say you have zero understanding. I just explained to you the concept of sea control, it is area dependent. Taiwan straits is like 200km from coastal China. Well within AD range, you have no idea how the 076 is going to be used and yet you spewed shit right away. Why am I wrong? You cannot determine sea control based on just ONE SHIP. Understand idiot?

Sure, Taiwan is well within China AD range which mean land base Chinese AD structure can protect the fleet, lol Area Dependent? REALLY....so let me get this straight, you are saying you either need to know what kind of threat you are facing before you deploy AND MORE IMPORTANTLY no new threat can ever materialise, or as I said you don't really care about what the enemy can do to you, right? Either that or you can somehow change mission profile of a deployment mid-sea......

Yes, that sounded like someone who know what does it mean by sea control will say LOL


The concept is simple.

You have a ship that can do more than 1 thing, then you don't need other ship to do that thing for you, and that in turn mean you have more ship to do stuff that other than sitting up your arse and do nothing. It doesn't matter if you are talking about sea control, land base support or air suppression,

If you don't understand this concept, I can't help you bud.

You still haven't answered my question, how do you know the tonnage of a ship just by looking.?

And finally, show me where i said I know how the tonnage of a ship just by looking? Show me exactly where I said this and I will answer your question