China leaves US trailing in race to build warships，Beijing’s shipbuilding capacity 230 times greater than American yards, US intelligence admits

[FuturePAF]

Shanghai Jiangnan Shipyard has started building the first type 076.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626523566840909824

That doesn’t look like it weighs 65,000 tons. Are you sure that is the weight of the ship, I’ve seen similar rendering in other navies and they have lower tonnages.

 

[jhungary]

That doesn’t look like it weighs 65,000 tons. Are you sure that is the weight of the ship, I’ve seen similar rendering in other navies and they have lower tonnages.

That's because it mostly wouldn't be over 40k would be too big, on a ship that does not process sea control capabilities (as there are no fighter/AWACS) It would be an easy target for anyone who remotely have any anti-ship missile

On the other hand, would you be just making a LHD for drone and LCAC? I found that highly unlikely, I mean sure, if you want to waste money for a single purpose platform.....

 

[FuturePAF]

That's because it mostly wouldn't be over 40k would be too big, on a ship that does not process sea control capabilities (as there are no fighter/AWACS) It would be an easy target for anyone who remotely have any anti-ship missile

On the other hand, would you be just making a LHD for drone and LCAC? I found that highly unlikely, I mean sure, if you want to waste money for a single purpose platform.....

Fair point. Go big or go home. They already have the experience building the Type 002, and could miniaturize some components as well as make it a CATOBAR and LHD.

Multi role is definitely the way to go.

 

[Han Patriot]

That's because it mostly wouldn't be over 40k would be too big, on a ship that does not process sea control capabilities (as there are no fighter/AWACS) It would be an easy target for anyone who remotely have any anti-ship missile

On the other hand, would you be just making a LHD for drone and LCAC? I found that highly unlikely, I mean sure, if you want to waste money for a single purpose platform.....

Wow boy genius can just look at a ship and tell its tonnage? Is it 48% metal?Lololol

 

[Elijah Manson]

The PLAN still has a long way to go to match the US Navy.

 

[jhungary]

Wow boy genius can just look at a ship and tell its tonnage? Is it 48% metal?Lololol

Do you actually have my point to counter what I just said?? Actually, can you even capable to make any on what we were talking about? About Sea Control and Multi-Functionality?

Fair point. Go big or go home. They already have the experience building the Type 002, and could miniaturize some components as well as make it a CATOBAR and LHD.

Multi role is definitely the way to go.

Easier to say than done. How long does it takes the Chinese to miniaturize nuclear reactor to put it on a nuclear sub.

The issue here is whatever they made, they wouldn't have any experience using them, because those are brand new concept and brand new system to them. That is a major issue.

Problem as I laid out on the other threads we had about Chinese taking Sea Control over Taiwan strait is they are the one doing the running battle. Which mean the interoperability and resource management is more important for them than for the Taiwanese, which mean any unfamiliar platform is going to be a burden rather than an asset for them, and then you also need to look at who they are taking on, the possibility of USN plus JMSDF on top of ROCN and maybe some more. USN and JMSDF had long Naval Tradition and know how that the Chinese did not process.

If I were the Chinese Commander and I want to take control of Taiwan by force, I would probably drill with platform I am comfortable with using.

 

[Han Patriot]

Do you actually have my point to counter what I just said?? Actually, can you even capable to make any on what we were talking about? About Sea Control and Multi-Functionality?


Easier to say than done. How long does it takes the Chinese to miniaturize nuclear reactor to put it on a nuclear sub.

The issue here is whatever they made, they wouldn't have any experience using them, because those are brand new concept and brand new system to them. That is a major issue.

Problem as I laid out on the other threads we had about Chinese taking Sea Control over Taiwan strait is they are the one doing the running battle. Which mean the interoperability and resource management is more important for them than for the Taiwanese, which mean any unfamiliar platform is going to be a burden rather than an asset for them, and then you also need to look at who they are taking on, the possibility of USN plus JMSDF on top of ROCN and maybe some more. USN and JMSDF had long Naval Tradition and know how that the Chinese did not process.

If I were the Chinese Commander and I want to take control of Taiwan by force, I would probably drill with platform I am comfortable with using.

I mean seriously in all my years dealing with floating systems aka ships, semisubs and TLPs. I am not sure how you can know the tonnage of a ship jist by looking at it. Can you explain to me your Xray vision? Lololol

 

[FuturePAF]

Do you actually have my point to counter what I just said?? Actually, can you even capable to make any on what we were talking about? About Sea Control and Multi-Functionality?


Easier to say than done. How long does it takes the Chinese to miniaturize nuclear reactor to put it on a nuclear sub.

The issue here is whatever they made, they wouldn't have any experience using them, because those are brand new concept and brand new system to them. That is a major issue.

Problem as I laid out on the other threads we had about Chinese taking Sea Control over Taiwan strait is they are the one doing the running battle. Which mean the interoperability and resource management is more important for them than for the Taiwanese, which mean any unfamiliar platform is going to be a burden rather than an asset for them, and then you also need to look at who they are taking on, the possibility of USN plus JMSDF on top of ROCN and maybe some more. USN and JMSDF had long Naval Tradition and know how that the Chinese did not process.

If I were the Chinese Commander and I want to take control of Taiwan by force, I would probably drill with platform I am comfortable with using.

If they want to actually do it soon. I think it’s. Big bluff to maintain their legitimacy; the elusive reunification, but with two caveats.

1. They have a reason to keep the economy growing and functional.
2. They get time to get familiar with these platforms. Carrier ops may take a couple more decades for them to feel proficient by enough to use it with confidence (unless they get to use it in a major war with a medium power, perhaps like India, with whom they have a land border dispute, to gain experience; Chinese carrier in the Bay of Bengal with the PLAAF operating from the mainland)

If war comes I think it would be a surprise for them as much as everyone else. Some kind of black swan event.

In the mean time, they are building tonnage and learning how to use it; in the words of Rumsfeld; to fight with the army you have not wish to have.

 

[jhungary]

I mean seriously in all my years dealing with floating systems aka ships, semisubs and TLPs. I am not sure how you can know the tonnage of a ship jist by looking at it. Can you explain to me your Xray vision? Lololol

Yet, you still have not provide a point to challenge my view, only that you claim to be A, B and C"

And I didn't say I look at it and see it is a 40k ton class. I said it is too big a ship to go without Sea Control to be a 60k ton class, and it's quite stupid to make a ship that only serve one role. That's what i said, someone else said the picture or rendering looks like they are sub-40k tons class.

Again, either provide a reason to challenge my point, I am not interested in learning who you claim to be.

 

[jhungary]

If they want to actually do it soon. I think it’s. Big bluff to maintain their legitimacy; the elusive reunification, but with two caveats.

1. They have a reason to keep the economy growing and functional.
2. They get time to get familiar with these platforms. Carrier ops may take a couple more decades for them to feel proficient by enough to use it with confidence (unless they get to use it in a major war with a medium power, perhaps like India, with whom they have a land border dispute, to gain experience; Chinese carrier in the Bay of Bengal with the PLAAF operating from the mainland)

If war comes I think it would be a surprise for them as much as everyone else. Some kind of black swan event.

In the mean time, they are building tonnage and learning how to use it; in the words of Rumsfeld; to fight with the army you have not wish to have.

Can they do that tho? Infact, did the Chinese wanted that to begin with?

I mean, if China really do starting to make wave on trying to recover Taiwan, that's cat out of the bag, and country surrounding them is going to acquire more arms for themselves too, the thing is, this is some distributed lethality concept, yes, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan or even US may not win an arms race one on one with China. But what if they combine?

Remember how Soviet Union collapse? They didn't collapse because they cannot out produce the US, they collapse because they cannot out produce the west. And with Ukraine and now Taiwan in hot water, the arms productivities went up multiple fold between the West, and China as big as a production base they become, they cannot out strip production of the entire West combine (Although PDF Chinese her think it's possible) which mean if China started to do so, it will no doubt trigger another arm race not just in the region. Especially so Japan aims to reindustrialise and remilitarize their country.

China can subtlety increase their power, but any surge will probably trigger an event they do not really wanted.

 

[Han Patriot]

Yet, you still have not provide a point to challenge my view, only that you claim to be A, B and C"

And I didn't say I look at it and see it is a 40k ton class. I said it is too big a ship to go without Sea Control to be a 60k ton class, and it's quite stupid to make a ship that only serve one role. That's what i said, someone else said the picture or rendering looks like they are sub-40k tons class.

Again, either provide a reason to challenge my point, I am not interested in learning who you claim to be.

Can you explain to me what is 'sea control' and how does it relate to your assessment that it is not 60k?

This is basically a yes or no question, yes i think this is not a 60k ton ship and no this is a 60k ton ship. So is it a YES or NO or I don't know? Lolol

 

[FuturePAF]

Can they do that tho? Infact, did the Chinese wanted that to begin with?

I mean, if China really do starting to make wave on trying to recover Taiwan, that's cat out of the bag, and country surrounding them is going to acquire more arms for themselves too, the thing is, this is some distributed lethality concept, yes, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan or even US may not win an arms race one on one with China. But what if they combine?

Remember how Soviet Union collapse? They didn't collapse because they cannot out produce the US, they collapse because they cannot out produce the west. And with Ukraine and now Taiwan in hot water, the arms productivities went up multiple fold between the West, and China as big as a production base they become, they cannot out strip production of the entire West combine (Although PDF Chinese her think it's possible) which mean if China started to do so, it will no doubt trigger another arm race not just in the region. Especially so Japan aims to reindustrialise and remilitarize their country.

China can subtlety increase their power, but any surge will probably trigger an event they do not really wanted.

They are in a better and worse position than the Soviets. They have 70-75% the GDP of the US, and somewhere around 30% of the collective West (North America, Europe, Japan, SK, and Australia). That’s the plus side because the Soviets max out at 40% of just the US.

The negative side, for China, is the Soviets had actual international allies, while China has partners, many under sanctions.

For China, they need to keep their internal economy growing and moving up the technological ladder to keep pace, but to surpass the US and have a chance to pass the collective west, they need stable, sanction proof international partners if not allies. For that they need to get their partners out of sanctions and on the development track (which includes buying more Chinese products like the C-919 airliner)

If the “Chinese Block” can close in on matching the Western Block, they can be ready for a Taiwan war at any given time, because they will have the space to build up forces to match the collective western forces in at least the first island chain.

So a lot comes down to BRI and similar initiatives, to allow them to diversify and keep on growing.

 

[jhungary]

Can you explain to me what is 'sea control' and how does it relate to your assessment that it is not 60k?

This is basically a yes or no question, yes i think this is not a 60k ton ship and no this is a 60k ton ship. So is it a YES or NO or I don't know? Lolol

Ships at 60k tons would be HUGE. Depends on how you are going to miniature your equipment.

Sea Control is to control the area around a fleet or you, and being a LHD as you claim, you are operating it statically as you can't launch anything if your LHD is moving, you can't launch/receive helicopter or LCAC in well deck when you are doing 30 knots.

Which mean if and when you use a LHD group, you would need to either have escort to try to protect the ship, or straight up standalone but without sea control and sea command ability, you cannot screen out threats that's coming to do harm on the ship. It would have to be rely on a detect-evade-intercept cycle to control the area around you ship, and this particular LHD does not have fighter on board, unless you are claiming those drone is going to do what those Alien drone does in independence day and start shooting green shit out and downing F-18 or incoming missile, that particular ship cannot perform the "Detect-Evade-Intercept" cycle and have to rely on other ship to do it for them when they are forward deploy. Which mean whoever is doing that would also have to remain static too, and with this means a 60k ton ship sitting offshore dragging other asset with it, that's -ve efficiency in war

That is why US LHA and LHD have Jump Jet (Harrier and F-35B), to screen out threat around the area and control the sea, and that's sea control.

And as I said, you can do whatever you want, if you ask me "Can China build a 60K tons LHD" sure, why not? You can of course build it, it's not some magical limit stopping the Chinese to build a particular ship tonnes class. I mean, it's your money. You are paying for it.

 

[Han Patriot]

Ships at 60k tons would be HUGE. Depends on how you are going to miniature your equipment.

Sea Control is to control the area around a fleet or you, and being a LHD as you claim, you are operating it statically as you can't launch anything if your LHD is moving, you can't launch/receive helicopter or LCAC in well deck when you are doing 30 knots.

Which mean if and when you use a LHD group, you would need to either have escort to try to protect the ship, but without sea control and sea command ability, you cannot screen out threats that's coming to do harm on the ship. It would have to be rely on a detect-evade-intercept cycle to control the area around you ship, and this particular LHD does not have fighter on board, unless you are claiming those drone is going to do what those Alien drone does in independence day and start shooting green shit out and downing F-18 or incoming missile, that particular ship cannot perform the "Detect-Evade-Intercept" cycle and have to rely on other ship to do it for them when they are forward deploy. Which mean whoever is doing that would also have to remain static, and with this means a 60k ton ship sitting offshore dragging other asset with it, that's -ve efficiency in war

That is why US LHA and LHD have Jump Jet, to screen out threat around the area and control the sea, and that's sea control.

And as I said, you can do whatever you want, if you ask "Can China build a 60K tons LHD" sure, why not? You can of course build it, it's not some magical limit stopping the Chinese to build a particular ship tonnes class. I mean, it's your money. You are paying for it.

Huge is how huge? Define to me how by looking at a picture, you can guesstimate it is less than 60k tonnes. I am serious, show us the math. If this was true, my company wouldn't need to pay for weighing services since you can fcking look and tell the weight. You probably don't even know the density of different steel grades.

Explain to me how a ship under construction is lacking sea control as per your own definitionz. Remember i specialize in dissecting idiots.lol

 

[beijingwalker]

They are in a better and worse position than the Soviets. They have 70-75% the GDP of the US, and somewhere around 30% of the collective West (North America, Europe, Japan, SK, and Australia). That’s the plus side because the Soviets max out at 40% of just the US.

Actually Russia never overtook US in real GDP and PPP, Russia was never the world biggest trading nation, export nation, surplus nation, industrial nation, agriculture nation, minging nation , shipping nation and manufacturing nation.