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China conducts test on ground-based midcourse missile interception

Haahahaha, I am watching chinese BBS. And they say:
theater missile defense=TMD
midcourse missile=National Missile Defense=NMD

So, TMD and NMD made in china should be

CTMD
CNMD
:rofl::rofl::rofl:Only chinese can understand.......
 
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Correct, China is a civilization more than a nation. Like past Dynasties and emperors, power may change hands but the people remain the same! :china:

We can leave india aside our discussion. Please edit you post and delete the second paragraph. Please brother.

:china:
 
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"some film about them" you say. :)

Remember at first the cultural difference may seem big, but if you always keep this in mind:

1) be polite and thoughtful to their needs

2) control your temper and don't get into sino-nippon politics

3) show the you care, take them out, take good care of them

AND

4) talk to them a lot

If you do this, you will have little problems, even if you are ugly or a little poor! :)

Thanks for you suggestions. BUT for you ideal of Pakistan and India, I don't think so. China and Japan in culture is same ,do you think we will become one country? NO.
so for Pakistan and India, I don't think so too.......Even they are be controlled by Engliand at the same time......

TMD, NMD, CNMD, CTMD.....
yes, it is always used in argument unfriendly........
When I see them first time, I won't think anything about missile...:rofl:
 
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Haahahaha, I am watching chinese BBS. And they say:
theater missile defense=TMD
midcourse missile=National Missile Defense=NMD

So, TMD and NMD made in china should be

CTMD
CNMD
:rofl::rofl::rofl:Only chinese can understand.......

Yes,only our Chinese can understand what "TMD,NMD,TNND,CNMD,CTMD,CTNND"mean:rofl::rofl:
 
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Thanks for you suggestions. BUT for you ideal of Pakistan and India, I don't think so. China and Japan in culture is same ,do you think we will become one country? NO.
so for Pakistan and India, I don't think so too.......Even they are be controlled by Engliand at the same time......

TMD, NMD, CNMD, CTMD.....
yes, it is always used in argument unfriendly........
When I see them first time, I won't think anything about missile...:rofl:

:rofl: You misunderstood my posting. I meant, China is united as a whole. But Pakistan before was several unique regions (Baloch, Sindh, NWFP, etc) and India was and still is really a bunch of loosely knit serfdoms.

What I mean was that before British Raj these places existed but not as a unified place. So I mean a united Pak that is separate from a united India.

And Japan will remain a separate nation for the nest few decades but will join the East Asian Community. Then whether it will become part of China, who knows? :cheers:
 
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And Japan will remain a separate nation for the nest few decades but will join the East Asian Community. Then whether it will become part of China, who knows? :cheers:

Japan will have to be a part of the Chinese civilization, if not as a part of the Chinese nation state.

:china:
 
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Japan will have to be a part of the Chinese civilization, if not as a part of the Chinese nation state.

:china:

That is not important. As long as there is mutual respect, mutual friendship, mutual sharing of ideas ---- just like the past thousands of years ----- then everything is good.

There is no need to "consolidate" into a super-landmass, as this causes danger of internal collapse. Take for instance EU which is fighting amongst themselves. Or for example Bharat in which state politics and discrimination is rampant. What point is there for a super-nation when internally everyone fights each other?

So better to have good relations with everybody!
 
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Hello everyone! Iam a colleague sutdent of southwest university of science and techology of china. I very want to get some friends in the here. this is my e-mail, 373430217@qq.com ,hoping the one who want to be my future firend can give me an e-mail, look forward to your letter,please show this haedline "I am come from PAKISTAN" when you sending to me .thank you!
 
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Hello everyone! Iam a colleague sutdent of southwest university of science and techology of china. I very want to get some friends in the here. this is my e-mail, 373430217@qq.com ,hoping the one who want to be my future firend can give me an e-mail, look forward to your letter,please show this haedline "I am come from PAKISTAN" when you sending to me .thank you!

Do not post in all threads. Please post here: click below:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...-21516-32990-20204-30475-36807-26469-a-9.html
 
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:rofl: You misunderstood my posting. I meant, China is united as a whole. But Pakistan before was several unique regions (Baloch, Sindh, NWFP, etc) and India was and still is really a bunch of loosely knit serfdoms.

What I mean was that before British Raj these places existed but not as a unified place. So I mean a united Pak that is separate from a united India.

And Japan will remain a separate nation for the nest few decades but will join the East Asian Community. Then whether it will become part of China, who knows? :cheers:

Japan will have to be a part of the Chinese civilization, if not as a part of the Chinese nation state.

:china:

wow incredible...... dirty minds thinking Japan also as their territory..... thank god Japanese members are not their on this forum.....or else they will give proper answer to this sort of mentality...:bunny:
 
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wow incredible...... dirty minds thinking Japan also as their territory..... thank god Japanese members are not their on this forum.....or else they will give proper answer to this sort of mentality...:bunny:

The difference is in one case it is being FORCED UPON and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Aboriginal Mongoloid NE. In the other case it is to FREE WILL to join hands in FRIENDSHIP. Japan was BORN FROM CHINA, the ORIGINAL INHABITANTS WERE CHINESE WHO SAILED THEIR SHIPS AND SETTLED THERE. There is similar culture and language (Kanji) and beliefs and values --- no body is forcing anything on anyone. That's why I said as long as people have good relations with everyone it is good. Now contrast this to the bloody ruthless slaughtering of Kashmirs, NE, Dalits and Naxalites. :flame:

Big difference.
 
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The difference is in one case it is being FORCED UPON and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Aboriginal Mongoloid NE. In the other case it is to FREE WILL to join hands in FRIENDSHIP. Japan was BORN FROM CHINA, the ORIGINAL INHABITANTS WERE CHINESE WHO SAILED THEIR SHIPS AND SETTLED THERE. There is similar culture and language (Kanji) and beliefs and values --- no body is forcing anything on anyone. That's why I said as long as people have good relations with everyone it is good. Now contrast this to the bloody ruthless slaughtering of Kashmirs, NE, Dalits and Naxalites.

Big difference.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

that is all... the post is not worth more than this to reply....:wave:


p.s: talkin about freedom...i think Tibetans and Uighurs also got same rights......ooouch...
and also the manslaughter and ethnic ceansing u talkng about... it is relevent inTibet and Xinxang only.. THE WORLD KNOWS IT....:):) but u dont see the muslims being killed in lakhs in Uighar because when it comes to China it is allowed.....u cant object to it....!!!!!
 
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that is all... the post is not worth more than this to reply....:wave:


p.s: talkin about freedom...i think Tibetans and Uighurs also got same rights......ooouch...
and also the manslaughter and ethnic ceansing u talkng about... it is relevent inTibet and Xinxang only.. THE WORLD KNOWS IT....:):) but u dont see the muslims being killed in lakhs in Uighar because when it comes to China it is allowed.....u cant object to it....!!!!!

trolls... :coffee: Tibetans and Uighurs have more freedom than your sorry a$$.

Anyways, I wonder how the U.S will react if we sell some of the systems to CUBA!!!
 
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that is all... the post is not worth more than this to reply....:wave:


p.s: talkin about freedom...i think Tibetans and Uighurs also got same rights......ooouch...
and also the manslaughter and ethnic ceansing u talkng about... it is relevent inTibet and Xinxang only.. THE WORLD KNOWS IT....:):) but u dont see the muslims being killed in lakhs in Uighar because when it comes to China it is allowed.....u cant object to it....!!!!!

u should free kashmir muslim first!

don't be blind selectively :cool:
 
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Yes, THAAD and midcourse missile defence are different kind of technologies. Both are a ABM defence systems and require a different set of technolgies. One is not an easier form of the other. However, in term of difficulties, mid course is much more difficult than THAAD. This can be from the fact that even India is trying THAAD. Along with Israel. However, only the US has attempted mid course missile defence. Israel and Russia currently do not have a known plan. India do not even brag this far yet as they are only bragging about their THAAD.
Theatre Ballistic Missile Defence Systems

"Mid course phase intercepts are arguably the most challenging from a detection and tracking perspective, as the missile is at the peak of its trajectory, and having shed booster stages is a small and cool radar target. Kinematically, mid course phase intercepts are demanding in terms of altitude, even if the missile's speed is modest as it flies across the top of the ballistic arc."
OK...You asked for it...

There are four MAIN phases in a ballistic trajectory: boost, ascent, mid and terminal. In between there are sub-phases, such as the 'gravity turn' phase...

Gravity turn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A gravity turn or zero-lift turn is a maneuver (see trajectory optimization) used in launching a spacecraft into, or descending from, an orbit around a celestial body such as a planet or a moon. This launch trajectory offers two main advantages over a thrust-controlled trajectory where the rocket's own thrust steers the vehicle. First, any thrust used to change the ship's direction does not accelerate the vehicle into orbit. This loss can be reduced by using gravity to steer the vehicle onto its desired trajectory. Second, and more importantly, because gravity does the steering during the initial ascent phase the vehicle can maintain low or even zero angle of attack. This minimizes transverse aerodynamic stress on the launch vehicle, allowing for a lighter launch vehicle.
But am not going into details about these sub-phases.

Each main phase require different methods and if necessary different technologies to effect detection. Detection and tracking is not the same as interception to destroy, so this argument -- Mid course phase intercepts are arguably the most challenging from a detection and tracking perspective -- should not be taken as gospel that mid-course interception is more difficult than the other main phases. What is 'difficult' for some does not equate to the same degree of hardship for others, especially when there is a clear technological gap between contestants, US and China with the US the clear leader.

So let us examine what Kopp is saying...

Theatre Ballistic Missile Defence Systems
Boost phase intercept is the easiest from a detection, tracking and kinematic perspective. The exhaust plume can be seen from orbit, and hundreds of kilometres away in the air. The missile is climbing at a supersonic speed, and early in the boost phase, will have all of its stages attached presenting a large radar target.
On the surface, it seems reasonable enough. But not everyone has orbital observation platforms specifically designed to detect rocket IR emissions. China does not have global orbital surveillance capability. To have effective boost phase interception means there must be constant surveillance over the suspected area and that area is usually someone else's sovereign territory. So from a general idea perspective, Kopp is correct. But from an operational perspective, we can dismiss boost phase detection, tracking and interception as out of reach for everyone. For US, we can only detect and track, not intercept.

Mid course phase intercepts are arguably the most challenging from a detection and tracking perspective, as the missile is at the peak of its trajectory, and having shed booster stages is a small and cool radar target. Kinematically, mid course phase intercepts are demanding in terms of altitude, even if the missile's speed is modest as it flies across the top of the ballistic arc.
Perhaps Kopp is a bit out of date in his technical journals...

Scintillation (radar) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scintillation is a fluctuation in the amplitude of a target on a radar display. It is closely related to target glint, or wander, an apparent displacement of the target from its mean position. This effect can be caused by a shift of the effective reflection point on the target, but has other causes as well. The fluctuations can be slow (scan-to-scan) or rapid (pulse-to-pulse).
What Kopp does not say is that mid-course detection and tracking is usually done from the ground. As the bus assembly is briefly in orbit it spins and as it spins, its surface imperfections create radar scintillations, aka 'micro-doppler' effects, making radar detection and tracking very possible for a technologically competent country like the US. A helo's rotors create radar scintillations.

Classify human motions using micro-Doppler radar
In this paper, human motion model and RCS (radar cross section) simulation of radar returns from human are investigated. Micro-Doppler signatures [1-6] induced by human motions are studied. It shows that the time-frequency representation of micro-Doppler signature provides distinctive time-varying features for human motions. Motion of different body part has different micro-Doppler signature. Thus, micro-Doppler can be a promising method for classifying human activities. Measurement data using an experimental X-band micro-Doppler radar were collected and the results are compared with the corresponding simulation results. The classification of human motions based on micro-Doppler signatures is also discussed.
Note the highlighted. Early warheads were quite blunt in the nose section, slowing the warhead's descent. Improved sensor and guidance systems give us sharply pointed warheads to reduce time to target. But this also mean the defender has a base RCS parameter in which he can fine tune his radar to detect a cluster or micro-Doppler effects created by the bus assembly. The spin rate will be constant, therefore any surface irregularities will create radar scintillations that are PREDICTABLE, much like the rhythmic arm movements created by a walking man. Kopp is correct in that this level of sensor sophistication is considerable, but not impossible for any country that is capable of launching an orbital vehicle.

Here is what Kopp said that is truly significant -- Kinematically, mid course phase intercepts are demanding in terms of altitude.... Not every country in the world is capable of launching even a suborbital vehicle. So what make a mid-course interception more difficult than a boost phase interception is altitude. Interception, not detection and tracking. What Kopp also does not say is that the mid-course phase decrease the response time by half. Of course it does as by now the missile is half way to its target. What Kopp also does not say is that decreased response time decreases the margin of errors, which lead us to terminal phase detection, tracking and interception...

Terminal phase intercepts sees the delivery vehicle produce a prominent ionisation trail and heat signature, as ablative coatings evaporate during re-entry. The ionisation plume provides a radar signature much larger than the vehicle itself, permitting a tracking system to cue precisely to the position of the warhead. The principal tracking challenge is discrimination between the re-entry vehicle and debris or countermeasures re-entering concurrently.
Lay aside decoys and ECM. Assume effective detection and tracking of the descending warhead. What make terminal interception difficult is the compressed response time which give no second chance to the interceptor should it miss. This is why the early nuclear ICBM defense interceptors were themselves nuclear weapons -- assurances of destruction. In a mid-course interception, the bus assembly is IR contrasted against space. Depending on the time of interceptor launch, if the interceptor has its own sensor suite of active radar and IR, correlated against ground based radars, the interceptor would have more time to orient itself against the target for a kinetic kill than when the interception is supposed to be in atmosphere.

Anti-ballistic missile (ABM) defense cannot be taken apart and its components carelessly interpreted to fit fanboy rhetorics. Here is what the US Missile Defense Agency (MDA) actually says about the entire concept...

Ballistic Missile Defense System Elements
Although the missile is easiest to detect and track in the boost phase because its exhaust is bright and hot, missile defense interceptors and sensors must be in close proximity to the missile launch.
Possibly violating territorial airspace. The 'close proximity' include orbiting observation platforms. Or constant airborne surveillance just outside of the potential adversary's territorial airspace. This quite leave boost phase intercepts out of the reach of most countries.

Ascent Phase Intercept (API)...would allow us to intercept early in the battle space and optimize our ability to execute a shoot-look-shoot tactic to defeat a threat before countermeasures are deployed, minimize the potential impact of debris, and reduce the number of interceptors required to defeat a raid of threat missiles.
The ascent phase is before apogee. Detection and tracking of the bus assembly can be from ground based radars.

The midcourse phase begins when the enemy missile’s booster burns out and it begins coasting in space towards its target. This phase can last as long as 20 minutes, allowing several opportunities to destroy the incoming ballistic missile outside the earth’s atmosphere. Any debris remaining after the intercept will burn up as it enters the atmosphere.
Twenty minutes is more than enough time for a ground based radar to guide the interceptor to the bus assembly. If the interceptor has its own sensor suite, this is more than enough time to orient itself against the target for a kinetic kill. The problem for the interceptor is flight controls and overall avionics sophistication as currently no orbital interceptor is capable of reacquiring the target after a miss. So that twenty minutes, or less, is vital. So while China's mid-course interception is commendable, it hardly qualified as 'most difficult'.

The terminal phase is very short and begins once the missile reenters the atmosphere. It is the last opportunity to make an intercept before the warhead reaches its target. Intercepting a warhead during this phase is difficult and the least desirable of the three because there is little margin for error and the intercept will occur close to the intended target. Terminal phase interceptor elements include the Theater High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) now undergoing advanced flight testing, the Aegis BMD nearterm Sea-Based Terminal Defense capability using the SM-2 Block IV missile, and the U.S. Army’s PATRIOT Advanced Capability 3 (PAC-3) now deployed worldwide. These mobile systems defend against short- to medium-range missiles.
The word 'Theater' is now replaced with 'Terminal', as in 'Terminal High Altitude Area Defense'. The key words here are 'high altitude', as in so high that it is very near being suborbital. The goal here is to extend the interception to when the warhead begins its descent. Terminal interception time is usually less than 30 seconds, versus 20 minutes for mid-course. It is at this point that if so equipped, the warhead will deploy countermeasures. Defense fire control will be heavily stressed by what is called 'closely spaced objects' (CSO). Decoys are usually less massive than the real warheads and will exhibit different radar return behaviors. But by the time the defender's radar determine that it is facing countermeasures, the defenders will have almost no time at all to effect an intercept.

Decoys, or CSO, may create what is called 'unresolved targets', meaning what is detected must be either classified as the true warhead or a decoy. Unresolved targets contaminate what is called 'purity of track'. The defender's radar system, in 30 seconds or less, must attempt to rid itself of 'unresolved targets' BEFORE launching the interceptor...

Track initiation of occasionally unresolved radar targets
In a dense detection environment track-while-scan algorithms will introduce many false tracks when processing is performed on a scan-by-scan basis. The maximum likelihood solution involving all detections on all scans is formulated and evaluated for the initiation problem consisting of false alarms, missed detections, and unresolved detections.
For a sophisticated attacker, the intention should be to create distinct decoys AND unresolved targets, thereby creating uncertainty in the defender's automated defense system. Uncertainty equals to hesitancy and in a terminal defense phase, it is a guaranteed success for the attacker. Therefore, the goal for the defender should be to have as sophisticated a sensor suite as possible and to attempt an interception at as high an altitude as possible REGARDLESS of the level of technical sophistication of the attacker. Put it this way...You should not care how smart or stupid is your attacker, only that no matter what he brings to bear, yours is much more smarter than what he can bring to the fight.

This is why claims like these...
I am really impress by the Chinese military. The first interceptor they announce is a mid course one. This is the most difficult one to accomplish and make Thaad look like child's play.
Yes, THAAD and midcourse missile defence are different kind of technologies. Both are a ABM defence systems and require a different set of technolgies. One is not an easier form of the other. However, in term of difficulties, mid course is much more difficult than THAAD. This can be from the fact that even India is trying THAAD. Along with Israel. However, only the US has attempted mid course missile defence. Israel and Russia currently do not have a known plan. India do not even brag this far yet as they are only bragging about their THAAD.
...Are utterly absurd.

Different ballistic phases may remove different difficulties but at the same time introduces new difficulties. Boost phase intercept is somewhat easy but require the defender to be near the attacker. Ascent and mid-phase intercepts may allow the defender to be secured at home soil but at the expense of reduced reponse time in the event of an attack. Terminal defense, not merely detection and tracking, is the most difficult of all.
 
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