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China Close To Test 5th Gen Fighter

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China Close To Test 5th Gen Fighter

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.

No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.

China classifies aircraft of the F-22’s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China’s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.

Work on “the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,” He says.

Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.

The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.

If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Brookes takes seriously the Chinese objective of technology equivalent to the F-22, and he sees no reason to doubt that the F-22 would be the standard against which they would judge their design. The know-how can be imported.

“The Russians have the technology and the Chinese have the money,” he says. “If they really set that as a target, then I think they can do it.”

The aircraft may not bother Western manufacturers in export markets, Brookes suggests, simply because an equivalent of the F-22 would be a destabilizing export that China would be prefer to keep to itself.

Even if China decides that it wants to export the fighter, Lockheed Martin should by then be well entrenched with the F-35, which should be mature and reliable at that point. Other manufactures may not be so well placed, however.

Gen. He made his remarks during an interview on China Central Television as part of the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the air force of the People’s Republic of China. (The general’s surname is pronounced as “her” but without the “r.”)

China is probably working on two fifth-generation concepts, says Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. One of those concepts, appearing most commonly in bits and pieces of evidence that have turned up from time to time, would be a heavy twin-engine fighter probably of about the same size as the F-22. The other is a single-engine aircraft probably closer to the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Gen. He could be referring to either of the aircraft when predicting an entry into service during the next decade. Fisher’s bet is that he is talking about the twin-engine concept.

Like Brookes, Fisher believes China is realistically aiming at the F-22’s technology level. “One has to assume that the People’s Liberation Army is confident in its projections, as it almost never makes such comments about future military programs, especially one that has been as closely held as its next-generation fighter.

“As such, one has to be asking very hard questions: How did the U.S. intelligence community get this one wrong? And inasmuch as no one expects the F-35 to replace the F-22 in the air superiority role, is it time to acknowledge that F-22 production termination is premature and that a much higher number is needed to sustain deterrence in Asia?”

In his July 16 speech, Gates said that even in 2025 China would have but a handful of fifth-generation aircraft.

The new Chinese fighter could come from the Chengdu or Shenyang plants of Avic Defense.

Gen. He says the Chinese air force plans to emphasize development of four capabilities: reconnaissance and early warning, air strike, strategic supply, and air and missile defense.

The J-10 began large-scale service entry in 2006, state media say.

When Wu raised the prospect of a supercruising fighter, an easy answer seemed to be an advanced version of the J-10. That looks less likely now that He describes the future concept as a full generation ahead of the J-10.

“I believe the Chinese have a difficult road if their design is tied to the J-10,” says a U.S. Air Force officer involved in the development of the F-35. “Significantly reduced signature requires more than coatings. It requires an integrated design philosophy with the right shaping, the right structure and the right surface coatings.”

Fisher assumes that China is developing improved fourth-generation fighters in parallel with the fifth generation.

The existence of the airlifter has been known for several years, if only because pictures of it have appeared fleetingly in presentations by the Chinese aviation conglomerate Avic.

As expected, it turns out to be a product of Avic’s large-airplane subsidiary, Avic Aircraft and, more specifically, of the subsidiary’s core plant, Xi’an Aircraft.

Avic Aircraft General Manager Hu Xiaofeng says the airlifter is in the 200-metric-ton class and will be unveiled at the end of this year.

In fact, its design has already unveiled in pictures shown by state media. The four-engine aircraft adopts the universal high-wing, T-tail configuration. The wing is mounted on top of the circular body, rather than passing through a deep segment of it and cutting out much of the usable cross-section. In that respect it is like the A400M, Ilyushin Il-76 and Kawasaki C-X but unlike the C-17, whose embedded wing presents less frontal area.

The main gear of the Chinese aircraft is housed in very protuberant sponsons, like those of the C-17.

A photograph of the cockpit shows five electronic displays of moderate size and conventional transport-style control columns. Engines are not revealed but would presumably be imported from Russia. A wind-tunnel model shows the engines are enclosed in long nacelles, like those of the Perm PS-90 from Russia.

The PS-90 has a standard maximum thrust of 35,300 lb. in its latest version. The C-17, with a gross weight of 265 tons, is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines of 40,400 lb. thrust.

The airlifter’s fuselage appears to be of conventional metal construction. The aircraft will be significantly larger than the A400M, which has a 141-metric-ton gross weight.

Hu says it has been independently developed in China. However, his parent company, Avic, has a long history of cooperation with Ukrainian airlifter specialist Antonov.

China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter | AVIATION WEEK
 
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China Close To Test 5th Gen Fighter

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.

No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.

China classifies aircraft of the F-22’s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China’s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.

Work on “the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,” He says.

Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.

The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.

If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

Brookes takes seriously the Chinese objective of technology equivalent to the F-22, and he sees no reason to doubt that the F-22 would be the standard against which they would judge their design. The know-how can be imported.

“The Russians have the technology and the Chinese have the money,” he says. “If they really set that as a target, then I think they can do it.”

The aircraft may not bother Western manufacturers in export markets, Brookes suggests, simply because an equivalent of the F-22 would be a destabilizing export that China would be prefer to keep to itself.

Even if China decides that it wants to export the fighter, Lockheed Martin should by then be well entrenched with the F-35, which should be mature and reliable at that point. Other manufactures may not be so well placed, however.

Gen. He made his remarks during an interview on China Central Television as part of the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the air force of the People’s Republic of China. (The general’s surname is pronounced as “her” but without the “r.”)

China is probably working on two fifth-generation concepts, says Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. One of those concepts, appearing most commonly in bits and pieces of evidence that have turned up from time to time, would be a heavy twin-engine fighter probably of about the same size as the F-22. The other is a single-engine aircraft probably closer to the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Gen. He could be referring to either of the aircraft when predicting an entry into service during the next decade. Fisher’s bet is that he is talking about the twin-engine concept.

Like Brookes, Fisher believes China is realistically aiming at the F-22’s technology level. “One has to assume that the People’s Liberation Army is confident in its projections, as it almost never makes such comments about future military programs, especially one that has been as closely held as its next-generation fighter.

“As such, one has to be asking very hard questions: How did the U.S. intelligence community get this one wrong? And inasmuch as no one expects the F-35 to replace the F-22 in the air superiority role, is it time to acknowledge that F-22 production termination is premature and that a much higher number is needed to sustain deterrence in Asia?”

In his July 16 speech, Gates said that even in 2025 China would have but a handful of fifth-generation aircraft.

The new Chinese fighter could come from the Chengdu or Shenyang plants of Avic Defense.

Gen. He says the Chinese air force plans to emphasize development of four capabilities: reconnaissance and early warning, air strike, strategic supply, and air and missile defense.

The J-10 began large-scale service entry in 2006, state media say.

When Wu raised the prospect of a supercruising fighter, an easy answer seemed to be an advanced version of the J-10. That looks less likely now that He describes the future concept as a full generation ahead of the J-10.

“I believe the Chinese have a difficult road if their design is tied to the J-10,” says a U.S. Air Force officer involved in the development of the F-35. “Significantly reduced signature requires more than coatings. It requires an integrated design philosophy with the right shaping, the right structure and the right surface coatings.”

Fisher assumes that China is developing improved fourth-generation fighters in parallel with the fifth generation.

The existence of the airlifter has been known for several years, if only because pictures of it have appeared fleetingly in presentations by the Chinese aviation conglomerate Avic.

As expected, it turns out to be a product of Avic’s large-airplane subsidiary, Avic Aircraft and, more specifically, of the subsidiary’s core plant, Xi’an Aircraft.

Avic Aircraft General Manager Hu Xiaofeng says the airlifter is in the 200-metric-ton class and will be unveiled at the end of this year.

In fact, its design has already unveiled in pictures shown by state media. The four-engine aircraft adopts the universal high-wing, T-tail configuration. The wing is mounted on top of the circular body, rather than passing through a deep segment of it and cutting out much of the usable cross-section. In that respect it is like the A400M, Ilyushin Il-76 and Kawasaki C-X but unlike the C-17, whose embedded wing presents less frontal area.

The main gear of the Chinese aircraft is housed in very protuberant sponsons, like those of the C-17.

A photograph of the cockpit shows five electronic displays of moderate size and conventional transport-style control columns. Engines are not revealed but would presumably be imported from Russia. A wind-tunnel model shows the engines are enclosed in long nacelles, like those of the Perm PS-90 from Russia.

The PS-90 has a standard maximum thrust of 35,300 lb. in its latest version. The C-17, with a gross weight of 265 tons, is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines of 40,400 lb. thrust.

The airlifter’s fuselage appears to be of conventional metal construction. The aircraft will be significantly larger than the A400M, which has a 141-metric-ton gross weight.

Hu says it has been independently developed in China. However, his parent company, Avic, has a long history of cooperation with Ukrainian airlifter specialist Antonov.

China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter | AVIATION WEEK

on a serious note....
first i want to see them have their own engine...(which is quite a few years away on present basis...) than it will look good for someone to write such article....or else it seems certainly tall claims without much substance...
 
. .
5th gen fighter is by my estimates at least 10 years before 1st flight. why? 1 china doesn't have the engine infact noone has an f-22 class engine as of yet or even an f 35 class engine, i dont expect china to have 1 until 2030 the 1st a/c will prolly have a al-41 or something and reverse engineering an engine is very complicated due to metallurgy. 2 china doesn't have aesa technology and wont have any until probably 2015. 3 chinas aerospace industry simply isn't that advanced as of yet it takes a HUGE investment to develop a 5th generation a/c all the way from plants that make the composite parts to the plants the make the engines it costs a ton of money to make these plants. 4 their j-10b and j-11b still aren't in service and they're only 4.5 gen fighters i dont expect a 5th gen fighter to fly within the next few years. true the pak-fa is flying but its just the airframe the subsystems are still under development. 5 chinese avionics expertise is nowhere near f-22 or f 35 levels the f 22 alone is rumored to have the computing power of 2 cray supercomputers.
 
. .
on a serious note....
first i want to see them have their own engine...(which is quite a few years away on present basis...) than it will look good for someone to write such article....or else it seems certainly tall claims without much substance...

I heard that the WS15 is being developed smoothly.
:cheers:
 
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5th gen fighter is by my estimates at least 10 years before 1st flight. why? 1 china doesn't have the engine infact noone has an f-22 class engine as of yet or even an f 35 class engine, i dont expect china to have 1 until 2030 the 1st a/c will prolly have a al-41 or something and reverse engineering an engine is very complicated due to metallurgy. 2 china doesn't have aesa technology and wont have any until probably 2015. 3 chinas aerospace industry simply isn't that advanced as of yet it takes a HUGE investment to develop a 5th generation a/c all the way from plants that make the composite parts to the plants the make the engines it costs a ton of money to make these plants. 4 their j-10b and j-11b still aren't in service and they're only 4.5 gen fighters i dont expect a 5th gen fighter to fly within the next few years. true the pak-fa is flying but its just the airframe the subsystems are still under development.5 chinese avionics expertise is nowhere near f-22 or f 35 levels the f 22 alone is rumored to have the computing power of 2 cray supercomputers.

China's developing her first indigenous T/W ratio of 10:1 turbofan engine ,designated FWS-15.Now we have seen the official pic of its core with intake,ideal bypass duct and nozzle installed.it successfully ran for the first time in April 2005.Qualification of the engine is scheduled for 2020.

AVIC-1 engine family(2006 Zhuhai Airshow)
http://i874.photobucket.com/albums/ab305/fws18/1011b853.jpg

October Surprises In Chinese Aerospace
by Richard Fisher, Jr.
International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > October Surprises In Chinese Aerospace
...
It is also likely that there are programs underway at Shenyang and Chengdu to
develop more powerful turbofans for 5th generation fighters. Chinese
professional engineering journals show an interest in engines with a 10 to 1
thrust to weight ratio, thought to be a requirement for advance 15+ ton thrust
engines needed for next generation fighters. One program is called WS-15 and is
likely a program of the Chengdu Engine Group, though some Chinese sources say it
is a Shenyang program. In mid-December 2009 an internet-source image of the
WS-15 engine core appears, at least confirming this program existence. A wall
chart from the 2006 Zhuhai show illustrating China fighter engine history noted
the 5th Generation Aero-engine to be a product of the AVIC-1 Power
Systems; In 2008-2009 AVIC was further reorganized resulting in the AVIC
Engine Group,which may promote greater cooperation among formerly competing
engine groups. . .
 
Last edited:
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5th gen fighter is by my estimates at least 10 years before 1st flight. why? 1 china doesn't have the engine infact noone has an f-22 class engine as of yet or even an f 35 class engine, i dont expect china to have 1 until 2030 the 1st a/c will prolly have a al-41 or something and reverse engineering an engine is very complicated due to metallurgy. 2 china doesn't have aesa technology and wont have any until probably 2015. 3 chinas aerospace industry simply isn't that advanced as of yet it takes a HUGE investment to develop a 5th generation a/c all the way from plants that make the composite parts to the plants the make the engines it costs a ton of money to make these plants. 4 their j-10b and j-11b still aren't in service and they're only 4.5 gen fighters i dont expect a 5th gen fighter to fly within the next few years. true the pak-fa is flying but its just the airframe the subsystems are still under development. 5 chinese avionics expertise is nowhere near f-22 or f 35 levels the f 22 alone is rumored to have the computing power of 2 cray supercomputers.

After read your reply, I can't see any proof related to your opinion. I'm very glad that if all westerns consider China in your way, since it will alleviate"China Threat" theory.
Trust me, China will surprise the world.
:china:
 
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5th gen fighter is by my estimates at least 10 years before 1st flight. why? 1china doesn't have the engine infact noone has an f-22 class engine as of yet or even an f 35 class engine, i dont expect china to have 1 until 2030 the 1st a/c will prolly have a al-41 or something and reverse engineering an engine is very complicated due to metallurgy. ... 4 their j-10b and j-11b still aren't in service and they're only 4.5 gen fighters i dont expect a 5th gen fighter to fly within the next few years. true the pak-fa is flying but its just the airframe the subsystems are still under development.

PAK FA to use 117S engine as interim solution due to problems with AL-41 development
117S / AL-37FU

some other examples are as follows:
Typhoon DA1,DA2 using RB199-122,Rafale-A initially powered by F404,and etc..
 
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China is taking this one small step at a time. It might not be able to compete against the US. But I do see China surpass all other countries in technology in the next 20-25 years.
 
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on a serious note....
first i want to see them have their own engine...(which is quite a few years away on present basis...) than it will look good for someone to write such article....or else it seems certainly tall claims without much substance...

We gotta our owm engine! :chilli:
 
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@Windjammer: Doesn't that look a little too big for a stealth aircraft? :confused:
 
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I heard china may be far closer to making the J-XX, then western estimates

China needs:
an advanced engine(TV and Super cruise)
Radar absorbent Coatings and Materials
Advanced AESA radar
A year or 2 of aircraft testing

The development time frame for many of those is within the decade.
And the J-xx project has been ongoing for a while now.

Very curious about its look and capability.

Keep us informed of any developments Chinese Members
 
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