China Civil Aviation, AVIC (MA600) & COMAC (ARJ21/C919/C929)

[LKJ86]

Good.

I am not underestimating Chinese technology capabilities. Far from it. However having technology is one thing, having commercial success is something else (even within China).

One-offs are one-offs and series production are what they are. I will be the first one to cheer when either of these jets get FAA/ESA safety approval.

I have been following the ARJ-21 and COMAC C-919 projects for the last two decades at least, since I became interested.

C-919 AFAIK has not gone into series production (6 prototypes built).

Order book looks to be mainly from Chinese Airlines and lessors. No FAA approval yet.

Again, what is your definition of "the fifteen year delay"?

I have been following the ARJ-21 and COMAC C-919 projects for the last two decades at least, since I became interested.

"for the last two decades at least"? Before 2000? Are you seriously?

C-919 AFAIK has not gone into series production (6 prototypes built).

C919 made its maiden flight on 2017, so is it possible for C919 to go into series production now?

 

[Bilal9]

Again, what is your definition of "the fifteen year delay"?

In the US/EU - this is the standard gestation period of a new aero engine, from concept to reality, google it if you want.

"for the last two decades at least"? Before 2000? Are you seriously?

Yes the 90 seat regional aircraft project goes back even further back to 1988, with the Germans (and Fokker was involved at one point).

MPC 75 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

C919 made its maiden flight on 2017, so is it possible for C919 to go into series production now?

That question should be asked to COMAC and Chinese Govt. Three/four years of testing to firm up flight regime/envelope is plenty, Boeing takes a lot shorter time, but we're not talking about Boeing here.

In any case, we are discussing obvious issues, which can be Googled and found out.

I doubt it is my job to educate everyone on obvious things.

Please pardon me - I have other things to attend to.

 

[LKJ86]

In the US/EU - this is the standard gestation period of a new aero engine, from concept to reality, google it if you want.

I just asked you about your definition of "the fifteen year delay" of ARJ21 and C919.

Yes the 90 seat regional aircraft project goes back even further back to 1988, with the Germans (and Fokker was involved at one point).

The project of ARJ21 started in about 2003.

I doubt it is my job to educate everyone on obvious things.

The question is: Is your doubt reasonable?

That question should be asked to COMAC and Chinese Govt. Three/four years of testing to firm up flight regime/envelope is plenty, Boeing takes a lot shorter time, but we're not talking about Boeing here.

Can you take some good examples?

 

[Bilal9]

You will have to eat your words on this, ARJ-21 has been in commercial service since June 2016.

Deliveries will be increased from year to year. 40 jets have been built, and at least 6 airlines are operating this jet so far. Production in 2021 is expected to be 30 aircraft. Confirmed orders received exceeds 200 aircraft, so the factory will be busy for many years to come.

Factory will only be busy if engines are available. That is the crux of the matter.

US has influence/capability to prevent supplies of ANY Western engine (PW, RR. GE, CFM, SNECMA, BMW) to China and this will happen irrespective of who wins the election in November - its a dominance/strategy issue). FAA/ESA approvals for sales to Western Airlines will also not be available. So maybe China needs to get cozy with the Russians (motor Sich, Aviadvigatel etc.).

I am not on any side on this, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

This will be my last post on this, don't have the energy to argue back and forth.

 

[LKJ86]

Factory will only be busy if engines are available. That is the crux of the matter.

US has influence/capability to prevent supplies of ANY Western engine (PW, RR. GE, CFM, SNECMA, BMW) to China and this will happen irrespective of who wins the election in November - its a dominance/strategy issue). FAA/ESA approvals for sales to Western Airlines will also not be available. So maybe China needs to get cozy with the Russians (motor Sich, Aviadvigatel etc.).

I am not on any side on this, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

This will be my last post on this, don't have the energy to argue back and forth.

You are making a conceptual shift and misleading the discussion.

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Good.

I am not underestimating Chinese technology capabilities. Far from it. However having technology is one thing, having commercial success is something else (even within China).

One-offs are one-offs and series production are what they are. I will be the first one to cheer when either of these jets get FAA/ESA safety approval.

I have been following the ARJ-21 and COMAC C-919 projects for the last two decades at least, since I became interested.

C-919 AFAIK has not gone into series production (6 prototypes built).

Order book looks to be mainly from Chinese Airlines and lessors. No FAA approval yet.

That is because CAA is far more stringent than FAA.
It was CAA that first withdrew its approval for all Boeing 737 Max that leads to its worldwide grounding following its deadly crashes.

Unfortunately lack of professionalism is prevalent in the USA and FAA is no different.
https://www.wftv.com/news/washington-news-bureau/faa-under-fire-failures-leading-up-boeing-737-max-crashes/YZTHKBY6HRHINNLR42JDP3OZDU/%3foutputType=amp

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

Factory will only be busy if engines are available. That is the crux of the matter.

US has influence/capability to prevent supplies of ANY Western engine (PW, RR. GE, CFM, SNECMA, BMW) to China and this will happen irrespective of who wins the election in November - its a dominance/strategy issue). FAA/ESA approvals for sales to Western Airlines will also not be available. So maybe China needs to get cozy with the Russians (motor Sich, Aviadvigatel etc.).

I am not on any side on this, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

This will be my last post on this, don't have the energy to argue back and forth.

So in your opinion, WTO is totally irrelevant.
Trade rules and ethics no longer exists.
Assuming that they capitulate to US bullying, do you really think it will affects China Aviation Industries today?
Thanks to Trump, the worldwide paradigm is shifting and soon it will be globe minus USA influence.

BTW China has virtually transferred Motor Sic to Xian since its acquisition. There is even a Ukrainian community there today.

 

[LKJ86]

MA700
View attachment 637919 View attachment 637920 View attachment 637921 View attachment 637922
Via @航空工业强度所 from Weixin

MA700

Via @航空工业一飞院 from Weixin

 

[LKJ86]

Y-12F时间域飞机

Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin

 

[lcloo]

Y-12F时间域飞机 = Y12F Time Domain aircraft.

What is Time Domain?
Time domain refers to the analysis of mathematical functions, physical signals or time series of economic or environmental data, with respect to time. In the time domain, the signal or function's value is known for all real numbers, for the case of continuous time, or at various separate instants in the case of discrete time.

Personally, I still cannot comprehend the above statement.

 

[LKJ86]

Via @航空工业哈飞 from Weixin

 

[LKJ86]

MA700

Via @民航事儿 from Weixin

 

[JSCh]

Chinese carrier to buy 100 homegrown aircraft
Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/10 23:58:21

Technicians work on the manufacturing line of China's ARJ21 aircraft at a factory in Shanghai, east China, March 6, 2020. The factory of Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd. in Shanghai has resumed production amid epidemic prevention and control efforts. Photo:Xinhua

Chinese carrier China Express announced on Wednesday that it has signed a framework agreement with Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) to buy and operate a total of 100 planes - including ARJ21-700 planes, China's first domestically made regional jetliner, and C919 commercial airliner planes - starting from 2020.

In addition, the two companies will cooperate in exploring overseas markets, in particular in markets along the route of the Belt and Road Initiative and in Africa. They will also integrate resources to build an industrial ecosystem for China's homegrown civil airplanes, according to a filing China Express sent to the Shenzhen Stock Exchange.

Other areas of cooperation include jointly promoting the design and optimization of aircraft, and exploring new services and maintenance models, the filing noted. China Express said that the purchase will help the carrier to steadily expand capacity and market size.

Lin Zhijie, a veteran market watcher, told the Global Times that the agreement shows that China's self-made airplanes have started market-oriented development and operation. "It has some special significance as China Express is a privately owned airline," Lin noted.

An employee of China Express said that Chinese carriers should take the responsibility to support the development of homegrown aircraft, industry news website reported. "For an airplane's market development, building and being used is equally important."

On Wednesday, COMAC also delivered three ARJ21 airplanes to Chengdu Airlines, Jiangxi Air and Genghis Khan Airlines, respectively, news website yicai.com reported.

As of the end of April, COMAC has delivered 25 ARJ21 aircraft to the three aforementioned carriers. It is also expected to deliver to China's three major carriers - Air China, China Eastern Airlines and China Southern Airlines - their first ARJ21 airplanes by the end of June, according to media reports.

So far, ARJ21 planes have flown on 50 routes, safely transporting more than 820,000 passengers.

China Express Air signs firm order to buy 50 ARJ21 aircraft from COMAC

China Express Airlines has signed a firm order for 50 ARJ21-700 aircraft worth $1.9 billion at list prices with state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC), the regional carrier said on Friday. Under an agreement signed in June, China Express would buy a total of 100 ARJ21 and...

ca.sports.yahoo.com

 

[CAPRICORN-88]

China Express Air signs firm order to buy 50 ARJ21 aircraft from COMAC

China Express Airlines has signed a firm order for 50 ARJ21-700 aircraft worth $1.9 billion at list prices with state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC), the regional carrier said on Friday. Under an agreement signed in June, China Express would buy a total of 100 ARJ21 and...

ca.sports.yahoo.com

It means foreign airliners manufacturers have just lost 100 new orders.
This support our argument on why China do not needs ro export these planes to be successful. China has a huge domestic market.

 

[LKJ86]

ARJ21-700

Via @查理爱飞机 from Weibo