China Air force woos Allies with J-10 fighter jets

[blain2]

Let's look at what you wrote earlier.

A fighter in the 4.5th gen is somewhat in between 4th and 5 th gen.

In order to be fully 4th gen you needed to have certain features.
In order to be 5 th gen you needed to be have certain features.

No disagreement there.

4.5th generation comes in where some planes adopt advanced features of the 5th gen aircraft while some don't.

Like supercruise, AESA radars and thrust vectoring.

This is not exactly true. If you are going by wikipedia definitions then its fine. Thrust vectoring is not a 5th gen attribute. It was available on a very early 3rd generation aircraft. You will find exceptions to the case for all of the three things mentioned here and others when you look at the line up of the current 4.5 gen aircraft. Secondly, 5th generation aircraft do not have to have all of the features mentioned. TV, Supercruise may not be needed.

Typhoon has all of the above, which a 4 th gen plane certainly doesn't have. But it doesn't have the stealth features hence it cannot be a 5th gen.

Typhoon does not have an AESA radar. It does not have thrust vectoring and it has a very limited supercruise.

The new Typhoon is coming with a newer radar that is AESA and the PD radar it has is way better than the one on JF-17 which houses the smaller version of the j-10 radar. There is a reason why PAF wants French avionics.

PAF wants the French avionics because of the weapons that can be integrated with it. The radar is not the main concern but due to the integration aspects (costs etc.), it makes sense to have French avionics with French weapons.

The issue on hand is that JF-17 is a 4th gen. aircraft. Others you mention are delayed 4th gen. aircraft that are 4.5 gen now and incorporate some enhancements in mostly their avionics that set them apart in terms of price and in performance. There is no exceptional generational difference between a 4th gen. aircraft and a 4.5 generation aircraft.

You yourself in your post claimed that JF-17 and j-10 are in the same class as other 4-4.5th gen aircraft. That's a wide assumption to make.

No its not. They both have fully glassed cockpits. They both offer advanced ECM/ECCM suites, they both have the potential for AESA upgrades. The flight controls may not be fully digital, but that alone is not a dis-qualifier for comparison.

4th gen aircraft are all of the current crop of fighters with PD radars, glassed cockpits and a combination of digital and non-digital controls. These aircraft are fully capable of offering performance with avionics and weapons that compare with those offered by 4.5 gen. aircraft. This is the reason that makers of 4th generation aircraft continue to push 4.5 gen versions (avionics and weapons) to customers. Gripen-NG, blk-60 (and in the future blk-52 AESA enhancement), F/A-18 SH, Mirage-2000-9 are all 4th generation plays to basically tie the customers over so they can go to 5th without having to opt for something like a Typhoon or Rafale. This is the reason the latter two are finding it so hard to penetrate the market in a big way.

4.5 generation aircraft are essentially a modification of the 4th gen to keep them relevant in a time when 5th gen aircraft are being introduced. The two programs that supposedly define the 4.5 generation (Typhoon and Rafale) were always planned to be 4th generation aircraft but due to delays in the program, they have hit the market when 5th generation aircraft are almost widely available. As a result, the makers have had to market the aircraft as a niche, a stop-gap before getting into 5th generation aircraft and thus with pricey upgrades, and a need to differentiate, you have what they claim to be a 4.5 gen. category.

At least define what class means?

Define what Generation means?

Hopefully I did that above in terms of the 4/4.5 gen joke.

7 hard points vs 11 on J-10 certainly shows they are not the same class. Maybe same generation, developed around the same time. With similar structures and avionics

Plus the MTOW of j-10 is more than jf-17. again not the same class.

There is a reason why the price of j-10 is so steep.

Do not mix up generation with class (even though I agree that aircraft are built to purpose and would differ even within the same generation). That is not what I said in my post. My point is about generational difference. Beyond the marketing, the gaps are not as large as one may think them to be.

Good stuff!

 

[Donatello]

No disagreement there.



This is not exactly true. If you are going by wikipedia definitions then its fine. Thrust vectoring is not a 5th gen attribute. It was available on a very early 3rd generation aircraft. You will find exceptions to the case for all of the three things mentioned here and others when you look at the line up of the current 4.5 gen aircraft. Secondly, 5th generation aircraft do not have to have all of the features mentioned. TV, Supercruise may not be needed.



Typhoon does not have an AESA radar. It does not have thrust vectoring and it has a very limited supercruise.



PAF wants the French avionics because of the weapons that can be integrated with it. The radar is not the main concern but due to the integration aspects (costs etc.), it makes sense to have French avionics with French weapons.

The issue on hand is that JF-17 is a 4th gen. aircraft. Others you mention are delayed 4th gen. aircraft that are 4.5 gen now and incorporate some enhancements in mostly their avionics that set them apart in terms of price and in performance. There is no exceptional generational difference between a 4th gen. aircraft and a 4.5 generation aircraft.



No its not. They both have fully glassed cockpits. They both offer advanced ECM/ECCM suites, they both have the potential for AESA upgrades. The flight controls may not be fully digital, but that alone is not a dis-qualifier for comparison.

4th gen aircraft are all of the current crop of fighters with PD radars, glassed cockpits and a combination of digital and non-digital controls. These aircraft are fully capable of offering performance with avionics and weapons that compare with those offered by 4.5 gen. aircraft. This is the reason that makers of 4th generation aircraft continue to push 4.5 gen versions (avionics and weapons) to customers. Gripen-NG, blk-60 (and in the future blk-52 AESA enhancement), F/A-18 SH, Mirage-2000-9 are all 4th generation plays to basically tie the customers over so they can go to 5th without having to opt for something like a Typhoon or Rafale. This is the reason the latter two are finding it so hard to penetrate the market in a big way.

4.5 generation aircraft are essentially a modification of the 4th gen to keep them relevant in a time when 5th gen aircraft are being introduced. The two programs that supposedly define the 4.5 generation (Typhoon and Rafale) were always planned to be 4th generation aircraft but due to delays in the program, they have hit the market when 5th generation aircraft are almost widely available. As a result, the makers have had to market the aircraft as a niche, a stop-gap before getting into 5th generation aircraft and thus with pricey upgrades, and a need to differentiate, you have what they claim to be a 4.5 gen. category.




Hopefully I did that above in terms of the 4/4.5 gen joke.



Do not mix up generation with class (even though I agree that aircraft are built to purpose and would differ even within the same generation). That is not what I said in my post. My point is about generational difference. Beyond the marketing, the gaps are not as large as one may think them to be.

Good stuff!

Long post, but as i said, the newer Typhoons can be equipped with AESA radar, it has yet to be seen if it offers real time performance upgrades.

Check the following link, scroll down to sensors:

Eurofighter Typhoon Multirole Combat Fighter - Air Force Technology


It has already been tested.


Rest of the post, it is what we have already discussed. No need to continue the same topic under different name

 

[HAIDER]

By Lucy Hornby

YANGCUN AIR BASE, China (Reuters) - Four Chinese J-10 fighter jets banked and sported in perfect formation in the blue skies near Tianjin on Tuesday, before executing a neat landing, their braking parachutes billowing out just in front of a viewing stand filled with military attaches.

Many of the 51 attaches, some from Africa and the Middle East, may be future customers for the Made-in-China fighter jet.

So far no other country's air force has the J-10, but China hopes the plane's manoeuverability and price can compete with the U.S. and others in sales to third countries, many of them allies through whom Beijing is courting global influence.

Ever since the early 1990s, China has been working to slim and upgrade its military into a modern fighting force. That means developing fighters for the People's Liberation Army Air Force, and also planes that others would want.

"Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option," said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10.

"Until this time, we haven't seen it physically flying... It's a good time for all the world's air force to know the PLA has a valuable and important aircraft flying in the skies."
Many military analysts watch the Chinese air force for clues to how it would perform in an attack on Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing views as a breakaway province and that the United States is obligated to defend.

For China's allies, particularly in the developing world, the issue isn't so much the Chinese forces' performance as it is the hardware itself and the diplomatic strategy behind its purchase.

"We came to see the performance of this J-10 aircraft. I think it's quite impressive but we still have to see how it compares to others in its class," said Derek Mwendaofyo, the Beijing-based defence attache for Zambia, which has historical and mining investment ties to China.


DEFENSE AT HOME, SALES OVERSEAS

At the moment, the Chinese air force itself is still short of planes, with outside analysts noting Chinese pilots often have less flying time under their belts than Western forces.

The Yangcun base, on a flat plain about two hours drive from Beijing and near to Tianjin, has a ratio of 1.2 pilots to planes, said Yan Feng, commander of the 24th division based there.

"A lot of people look at hours in the air and quality of simulators and China still lags behind," said Matthew Durnin, a Beijing-based researcher with the World Security Institute.
"More importantly, their exercises are carefully scripted and controlled from the ground, which isn't very applicable to actual combat."

But for Pakistan, the geo-political balance between China, the United States, Japan and Taiwan in Northeast Asia is less important than that of South Asia, where it is balancing the Americans' desire for an ally against the Taliban in Afganistan with China's desire for better sea access to the energy-rich Middle East.

It is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 more F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said in March after talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

"In Pakistan we have Western aircraft, French aircraft and Chinese aircraft, so we will be able to see how we can position this in," Bokhari said, referring to possible purchases of the J-10. The Alabama-trained pilot said he wanted to try flying it.(Sir Murad do you know this guy)

"Price-wise, this is a point which is still under discussion, the main point."

For pilots like Yan Feng, the beauty of the J-10 lies in its manoeuverability, its stability, and its integrated avionics system.

Compared to a J-7 plane, which China has already exported, the J-10 "is like an adult to a child," Yan said.

"As a pilot and a division chief, I am very proud to have J-10 aircraft."

Yan estimated a J-10 cost the PLA Air Force, which he noted is also a consumer, about 190 million yuan ($27.84 million). That's pricey compared to the $15 million-plus price tag on a U.S. F-16 fighter, a favourite of world air forces
"I believe the vendors know how to put it across to whoever the buyer is," said K Gambo, military attache from Nigeria, who said his country might consider buying from China.

"With good bargaining the price can come down."

(Additional reporting by Maxim Duncan and Ben Blanchard; Editing by Jerry Norton)

China air force woos allies with J-10 fighter jet | World | Reuters

 

[Peregrine]

Hi
I think this thread with already exists with similar topic and same article

 

[HAIDER]

Question remained unanswered, that according to Mr Bokhari, Pakistan hasn't tested J10 yet. Then how come a contract for 36 is in final phase.

 

[Peregrine]

Question remained unanswered, that according to Mr Bokhari, Pakistan hasn't tested J10 yet. Then how come a contract for 36 is in final phase.

Hi
OMG! that was the same question i asked on that thread but no one replied me

 

[TaimiKhan]

Question remained unanswered, that according to Mr Bokhari, Pakistan hasn't tested J10 yet. Then how come a contract for 36 is in final phase.

Do you think such kind of information would be leaked out or told ?? Officially it has not been tested, but unofficially PAF pilots stationed in China have flown it and know about its characteristics.

How many people know that PAf pilots have flown Chinese Su-30s also ?? Don't we hear rumors that PAF has flown UAE F-16 Blk 60s ?? Or that it may also have flown M2Ks ?? Last year we saw pictures of the PA Aviation commanding officer with some other PA pilot officers testing Tiger helicopter, did we hear any media news about it ?? Nops.

Thus such information is not known, previously also, we used to check and flew Chinese aircraft, and recommend changes as per our requirements.

JF-17 & J-10s have been made by the same company at the same facility & tested at the same base, so when PAF pilots were there test flying JF-17, how hard it would have been to have a ride on the J-10s ??

 

[Mike Taylor]

At the moment, the Chinese air force itself is still short of planes, with outside analysts noting Chinese pilots often have less flying time under their belts than Western forces.But for Pakistan, the geo-political balance between China, the United States, Japan and Taiwan in Northeast Asia is less important than that of South Asia, where it is balancing the Americans' desire for an ally against the Taliban in Afganistan with China's desire for better sea access to the energy-rich Middle East.


Thanks
_____________________
Military gifts specialists offer a select range of custom designed Airforce Rings for all branches of the armed services.

 

[heavystorm]

I am afraid but you are misinformed about the tech in J-10.
China is offering this latest jet to the world like it always had before.
YouTube - J-10 Fighter-Bomber of Chinese PLAAF / Pakistan Air Force Designation FC-20 : Video 2

Dear Pakistan friend, as a Chinese, I wish that Pakistan would buy some J10,but Pakistan is waitting now. Though we feel afraid, but we still hope that Pakistan is waitting for J10B,the most advanced aircraft of China. J10B has not been validated by the goveriment of China, but we can see some photos in Internet, it looks advanced than before. Personally I think ,the actavity of J10B wouldn't under the SU 30 or F16D\C. If the price of J10B wouldn't higher than F16D\C, it is a good option of Pakistan.
Dear friend, I think that Pakistan is a developing country, just like China, but there are some strange things. Pakistan will buy over 200 modern aircraft soon, further more, modern tanks, big ships and submarines, all of this show that Pakistan is rich, is it true? China is not rich,but she looks rich,because the centural goveriment hold most of the money of our country, the common people are not rich.