China Air force woos Allies with J-10 fighter jets

[Peregrine]

Hi
"Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option," said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10."
He also said that he wants to fly it. does this mean Pakistani pilots haven't flown it yet and they are not even certain if they want it.

 

[Donatello]

J-11 is a Chinese Su-30. Post edit - Consider what the Chinese have done to some of the original J-11s. They have undertaken the same upgrades as those available on Su-30MKK bringing at least 3 sqns worth of aircraft to the Su-30 specifications.

JF-17 and J-10 are in the same class as other current 4-4.5 gen aircraft.

Let's look at what you wrote earlier.

A fighter in the 4.5th gen is somewhat in between 4th and 5 th gen.

In order to be fully 4th gen you needed to have certain features.
In order to be 5 th gen you needed to be have certain features.

4.5th generation comes in where some planes adopt advanced features of the 5th gen aircraft while some don't.

Like supercruise, AESA radars and thrust vectoring.

Typhoon has all of the above, which a 4 th gen plane certainly doesn't have. But it doesn't have the stealth features hence it cannot be a 5th gen.

The new Typhoon is coming with a newer radar that is AESA and the PD radar it has is way better than the one on JF-17 which houses the smaller version of the j-10 radar. There is a reason why PAF wants French avionics.

You yourself in your post claimed that JF-17 and j-10 are in the same class as other 4-4.5th gen aircraft. That's a wide assumption to make.

At least define what class means?

Define what Generation means?

7 hard points vs 11 on J-10 certainly shows they are not the same class. Maybe same generation, developed around the same time. With similar structures and avionics

Plus the MTOW of j-10 is more than jf-17. again not the same class.

There is a reason why the price of j-10 is so steep.

 

[Donatello]

No every upgraded version has its own value, F-16 block 20 is not F-16 block 52, Is it??? Mirage rose equal to normal Mirage 2000??



Really You come to say JF-17 has better avionics, better Airframe designing, better engines than Sukhoi 30 MKI?? Man come on, dont overhype that aircraft....

BLAIN2 never said that jf-17 is better than Su 30 MKI. He just compared and he is right for the fact that Su-30mki is cheaper than newer same tech western fighters.

The fact that you automatically assume that comparing jf-17 with Su-30 is like making it better than Su-30 is the very reason why the threads are derailed.

Even with the current avionics on jf-17, it will give Su-30 a run for it's money.


you haven't flown Jf-17 or Su 30 mki.
You probably have not even seen both of them in real life.
No Indian has perhaps even touched the jf-17 and you are claiming one to be better than the other?

Just because we compare JF-17 with Su 30, doesn't mean it's better or worse. Lets leave that to the pilots who will be up against each other. Though let's pray that Jf-17 and Su 30 don't have to take to air, because by that time, Jf-17 and Su 30 MKIs would be the least of our concerns. Nuclear war maybe what we would be looking at.

 

[Avatar]

BLAIN2 never said that jf-17 is better than Su 30 MKI. He just compared and he is right for the fact that Su-30mki is cheaper than newer same tech western fighters.

The fact that you automatically assume that comparing jf-17 with Su-30 is like making it better than Su-30 is the very reason why the threads are derailed.

Even with the current avionics on jf-17, it will give Su-30 a run for it's money.


you haven't flown Jf-17 or Su 30 mki.
You probably have not even seen both of them in real life.
No Indian has perhaps even touched the jf-17 and you are claiming one to be better than the other?

Just because we compare JF-17 with Su 30, doesn't mean it's better or worse. Lets leave that to the pilots who will be up against each other. Though let's pray that Jf-17 and Su 30 don't have to take to air, because by that time, Jf-17 and Su 30 MKIs would be the least of our concerns. Nuclear war maybe what we would be looking at.

The Times Now reporter had tried the JF-17 simulator which should be as good as the real thing and he certainly wasn't impressed. The Su-30MKI is one of the best versions of Su-30/Su-35 ..The two are simply incomparable no matter what we say.

MKI can act like a mini-AWACS, carry a cruise missile, carry the AWACS killer, long range A2A missiles. The radar is one of the most powerful in the world and combine that with superb aerodynamics and TV. How can you even compare the two, dude ?

It would be more logical to compare JF-17 with LCA after LCA is inducted (between 2010-2011)

 

[Peregrine]

The Times Now reporter had tried the JF-17 simulator which should be as good as the real thing and he certainly wasn't impressed.

Hi
LoL Times Now- India. you forgot to mention India, off course he wasn't impressed i wonder why

 

[Avatar]

Hi
LoL Times Now- India. you forgot to mention India, off course he wasn't impressed i wonder why

Okay. Lets forget that then.

Are there any neutral professionals who have tried the simulator ?
_____________

You know ..everytime a new product launches ..we have a "Chinese copy" of the same in market. It looks like the same product, acts like the same product but it's much cheaper than the original. It lacks some features and works very well. The owners are happy about it till one day it gives up. I'm not generalizing, the JF-17 is a quality fighter jet ..but at 18 million dollars they definitely had to make some compromises, right ?

 

[Donatello]

The Times Now reporter had tried the JF-17 simulator which should be as good as the real thing and he certainly wasn't impressed. The Su-30MKI is one of the best versions of Su-30/Su-35 ..The two are simply incomparable no matter what we say.

MKI can act like a mini-AWACS, carry a cruise missile, carry the AWACS killer, long range A2A missiles. The radar is one of the most powerful in the world and combine that with superb aerodynamics and TV. How can you even compare the two, dude ?

It would be more logical to compare JF-17 with LCA after LCA is inducted (between 2010-2011)

It was a simulator, Designed to give people an overview of the glass cockpit design of the JF-17, when the real model is not available. Real flying comes in the real plane. There is a reason why PAF makes it's pilots fly regular hours rather than the cheaper method of training in simulator. Even though in simulator you save fuel, and save planes from any bird strikes.

It's the real flying experience that counts. A simulator can recreate an engine failure, landing gear trouble, navigation errors, but if pilot doesn't correct it, simulator is safe. In the real world, the plane would be lost.

and yeah, i have been inside the cockpit of a Boeing-777-300ER during taxi, takeoff and landing (with an ex-PAF F-86 pilot who has more than 2000 flying hours.) And he says, simulators for any plane suck big time.



You based your judgment of a plane on it's simulator, now that is really being too vague and inaccurate.

 

[Windjammer]

I dont want to visit that thread which banned me for a simple reason, I asked whats pakistani in JF-17, I got instant banning....

Well I am not sure it's ignorance or your knowledge is indeed cumbersome but let me enlighten you, JF-17 is currently the only fighter aircraft designed specifically by an air force, the same airforce has a 50% stake in the project and over and above all, perhaps with the exception of SU-30s, the Thunder can fly rings around everything in the IAF inventory.

 

[pkd]

 

[Donatello]

The Times Now reporter had tried the JF-17 simulator which should be as good as the real thing and he certainly wasn't impressed. The Su-30MKI is one of the best versions of Su-30/Su-35 ..The two are simply incomparable no matter what we say.

MKI can act like a mini-AWACS, carry a cruise missile, carry the AWACS killer, long range A2A missiles. The radar is one of the most powerful in the world and combine that with superb aerodynamics and TV. How can you even compare the two, dude ?

It would be more logical to compare JF-17 with LCA after LCA is inducted (between 2010-2011)

JF-17 is to be the backbone of PAF, while LCA is not in case of IAF. There is a reason why the IAF is not interested in LCA. They could spend 10 billion dollars of the MMRCA on LCA and make it into a better plane. JF-17 is a whole different class, with tested weapons, inducted and flying combat sorties in the north-west plus mock fighting against the F-16s, J-7 and Mirage III/V. LCA has a lot to cover.


Su-30 can fire cruise missiles?

So can an old PAF ROSE Mirage. That too being the Pakistani made Ra'ad cruise missile. Tested and tested again.
Brahmos is still not integrated fully even though the plane and missile are both from Russia.


If Su-30 engages it's radar for AWACs, then the amount of computing power for combat tactics is severely reduced. You have to compromise one for the other. There is a reason why SU-30 MKI radar can track 15 targets and engage only 4 of them, even though it might be carrying 10 external AAMs. Once the Radar/Computer are engaged in searching, tracking, engaging and constantly directing the missile to right target, most of the computing power is used up.

JF-17 is not designed to counter Su-30mki one on one but supplement other jets which do. J-10 is more or less for that job.

If a single engine,single seater, 7 hard point, 12,700kg MTOW, Mach 1.8 top speed, 20 million dollar plane could go head to head with a 40 million dollar, twin engine, twin seater, 10 hard point, 38,800 kg MTOW plane,
Then there won't be any Su-30MKIs flying.


The thread is about J-10 lets keep it there.

I would appreciate the beauty of Su-30Mki any day, but this thread is certainly not for that purpose.

PAF already has engineers in Chengdu working on seeing if J-10 can be made into a much better plane. Thrust vectoring engines being one of them. A current J-10B would be a headache for any plane currently in the inventory of the IAF including future MMRCA contenders. The problem for PAF, is the steep price it comes with, which makes them wonder should they buy this plane or by paying some more cash, get western fighters. That is one thing we will only know after the Indian MMRCA is initiated.

 

[Frankenstein]

Thats really surprising. J-10 is Chinas state-of-the-art front-line fighter. Usually countries do not offer such equipment to countries who are not their closest and most trustworthy allies. Ex. F-22, B-2 etc. by US.
If China is really willing to sell J-10 to anyone willing to pay, the India should procure a few, directly or indirectly. Study it and find its strengths and weaknesses and design operational procedures to counter it, since PAF will have it in its inventory.
Will China also market FC-1 in the international arms market?

The one we are geting is J10B, which is highly agile and advance, so sit tight

 

[Merilion]

Thats really surprising. J-10 is Chinas state-of-the-art front-line fighter. Usually countries do not offer such equipment to countries who are not their closest and most trustworthy allies. Ex. F-22, B-2 etc. by US.
If China is really willing to sell J-10 to anyone willing to pay, the India should procure a few, directly or indirectly. Study it and find its strengths and weaknesses and design operational procedures to counter it, since PAF will have it in its inventory.
Will China also market FC-1 in the international arms market?

many suggested this is a good sign that 5th gen Jxx is progressing very smoothly and soon will do its maiden flight--most likely before 2012.
just a thought though, no one can confirm it's true or not at this stage.

 

[Frankenstein]

I dont want to visit that thread which banned me for a simple reason, I asked whats pakistani in JF-17, I got instant banning....

I have seen so many Indians repeating this Question in every other thread, even if we answer them they ask the same thing again and then again, so that's why they get banned, better watch yourself this time

 

[notorious_eagle]

The Times Now reporter had tried the JF-17 simulator which should be as good as the real thing and he certainly wasn't impressed.

Thats his opinion but the simulator is not the real thing , besides our pilots who have converged from F16 love this aircraft and dont want to go back.

MKI can act like a mini-AWACS,

Excellent, MKI's PESA radar is a thing of a beauty thats forsure.

carry a cruise missile,

Our JF17's will also carry RAAD, our Mirage's are also capable of doing that.

carry the AWACS killer,

Is it operational yet?

long range A2A missiles.

And so will the JF17;either the Darters or SD10.

The radar is one of the most powerful in the world

Nodoubt about that but did you ever consider that our JF17's will be datalinked to our AWACS, thus we have taken away the MKI's biggest advantage. You can thank your Senior Staff in IAF for introducing AWACS into the subcontinent, when clearly without them India had a huge advantage over Pakistan.

and combine that with superb aerodynamics and TV. How can you even compare the two, dude ?

Have you ever considered that MKI's huge size and RCS will be a magnet for a heat seeking signal, i would love to see those aerodynamics and TVC dodge a modern heat seeking missile. MKI will have a better chance of dodging the missile using its ECM to misguide the missile and than employing its chaffs/flares. Nobody is comparing the two because obviousally one on one the MKI has the advantage, but in a war scenario they wont be facing each other one one because we will definitely use our Multipliers. That is exactly what these Multipliers were bought for, to immunize the threat faced from India's modern fighter jets that are better in quality.

You are forgetting one extremely important aspect, the skill of the pilot. There is a reason why IAF and PAF invest heavily in their pilots because they realize that they will be the biggest deciding factor. In the end what will matter is which pilot makes the other play by his rules and employs better tactics.

 

[Donatello]

Don't worry, SU-30 Mkis would be picked up by the newly inducted AN/TPS 77 radars before they have time to think.