Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[ozranger]

I don't really understand why this engine discussion is taking so much "place" on here or on the other thread for that matter. The main point as of today is that whatever engine J-20A has today is still way above any level of upgraded J-10 / J-11 / J-15 / J-16 as a "total package".

Other main point is to get every part of the infrastructure ready for a massive production when the newer engine is ready - however, one should still start buildning J-20A with present engine, because as a "total package aircraft", it's still better and above what most countries have.

No one is a superpower because they have 50 or 100 stealth fighters. They can become superpower when you have 1500 - 2000 of those.
The same applies for submarines, destroyers and so on. One is not a superpower because a given country has only a handful of this and that.
So mass production and resources along with infrastructury and economy is as important as this next generation engine that will power J-20 in the future.

The most significant thing is China is progressively getting the Know-How for developing big fighter jet engines, on which the U.S. and Russia are the only two other players at the moment.

 

[cnleio]

 

[Deino]

 

[Figaro]

View attachment 423770

No new serials . Guess they're pausing for the WS-10X

 

[Deino]

No new serials . Guess they're pausing for the WS-10X

No, I think since it is simply from the film with clearly #78273 being visible.
They surely won't show the very latest LRIP birds or even that WS-10B-powered prototype in a film.

 

[PRC2025]

The most significant thing is China is progressively getting the Know-How for developing big fighter jet engines, on which the U.S. and Russia are the only two other players at the moment.

China is getting there step-by-step, so there is no need to worry. Like I said, one needs to have the infrastructure for the massproduction in place. That is extremely important.
The F-35 is not some kind of "magic", or else the U.S. would be fine with only a handful of them. What makes one a superpower is if one has over 2.000 F-35 which is what the U.S. is planning for.

That's why the numbers are as important as technological parity.

Russians are having serious challenges themselves regarding Su-57, the same way the U.S. has problems with F-35. But still, the difference is that the U.S. is planning for more than 2.000 F-35, while Russia isn't. Hence, the biggest problem for Russia is the fact that even IF or whenever they get Su-57 ready, it will only be a handful of them and Russia is planning building them very slowly. I think the "latest target" was to have only 12 Su-57 by the end of 2019 - and I even doubt that will be the case, the same way as they planned for 2,300 Armata T-14 MBTs, and now they're hoping for about 100 of those by 2020. And again, I even doubt they'll have 100 by 2020, while 2,300 is just a pipe dream. Same goes for "Leader" cruisers, because they keep making new "deadlines" all the time. That is how it is when one doesn't have the money and infrastructure to actually massproduce these items in larger numbers.

So one needs to have money and resources in order to "play" at the top of the league globally. As pointed out earlier, J-20 is levels above already compared to any J-10 / J-11 / J-15 / J-16 which are already very good fighter aircraft. So J-20 production should be started already now. It doesn't matter what engine it uses. What matters is to have the airframes ready, along with sensors, radars, missiles, etc - and then put on whatever engine is used as of now, while developing the one that is "ideal" for later.

Also the development of J-31 is interesting and I believe one should use the same philosophy there. Accept the J-31 ASAP and start building that along with J-20.

 

[Figaro]

China is getting there step-by-step, so there is no need to worry. Like I said, one needs to have the infrastructure for the massproduction in place. That is extremely important.
The F-35 is not some kind of "magic", or else the U.S. would be fine with only a handful of them. What makes one a superpower is if one has over 2.000 F-35 which is what the U.S. is planning for.

That's why the numbers are as important as technological parity.

Russians are having serious challenges themselves regarding Su-57, the same way the U.S. has problems with F-35. But still, the difference is that the U.S. is planning for more than 2.000 F-35, while Russia isn't. Hence, the biggest problem for Russia is the fact that even IF or whenever they get Su-57 ready, it will only be a handful of them and Russia is planning building them very slowly. I think the "latest target" was to have only 12 Su-57 by the end of 2019 - and I even doubt that will be the case, the same way as they planned for 2,300 Armata T-14 MBTs, and now they're hoping for about 100 of those by 2020. And again, I even doubt they'll have 100 by 2020, while 2,300 is just a pipe dream. Same goes for "Leader" cruisers, because they keep making new "deadlines" all the time. That is how it is when one doesn't have the money and infrastructure to actually massproduce these items in larger numbers.

So one needs to have money and resources in order to "play" at the top of the league globally. As pointed out earlier, J-20 is levels above already compared to any J-10 / J-11 / J-15 / J-16 which are already very good fighter aircraft. So J-20 production should be started already now. It doesn't matter what engine it uses. What matters is to have the airframes ready, along with sensors, radars, missiles, etc - and then put on whatever engine is used as of now, while developing the one that is "ideal" for later.

Also the development of J-31 is interesting and I believe one should use the same philosophy there. Accept the J-31 ASAP and start building that along with J-20.

First, let's get the designation correct. The J-31 is officially called the FC-31. It is not as simple as "accepting" the FC-31 at the PLAAF's free will; its performance is unknown and probably does not live up to standards. Also, the FC-31 is private funded, meaning that it isn't prioritized by the PLAAF. Considering that the J-20 (which is not optimized) is winning the naval aviation fighter completion vs an obviously ideal platform (FC-31), that goes to show how far the FC-31 is coming along

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

China is getting there step-by-step, so there is no need to worry. Like I said, one needs to have the infrastructure for the massproduction in place. That is extremely important.
The F-35 is not some kind of "magic", or else the U.S. would be fine with only a handful of them. What makes one a superpower is if one has over 2.000 F-35 which is what the U.S. is planning for.

That's why the numbers are as important as technological parity.

Russians are having serious challenges themselves regarding Su-57, the same way the U.S. has problems with F-35. But still, the difference is that the U.S. is planning for more than 2.000 F-35, while Russia isn't. Hence, the biggest problem for Russia is the fact that even IF or whenever they get Su-57 ready, it will only be a handful of them and Russia is planning building them very slowly. I think the "latest target" was to have only 12 Su-57 by the end of 2019 - and I even doubt that will be the case, the same way as they planned for 2,300 Armata T-14 MBTs, and now they're hoping for about 100 of those by 2020. And again, I even doubt they'll have 100 by 2020, while 2,300 is just a pipe dream. Same goes for "Leader" cruisers, because they keep making new "deadlines" all the time. That is how it is when one doesn't have the money and infrastructure to actually massproduce these items in larger numbers.

So one needs to have money and resources in order to "play" at the top of the league globally. As pointed out earlier, J-20 is levels above already compared to any J-10 / J-11 / J-15 / J-16 which are already very good fighter aircraft. So J-20 production should be started already now. It doesn't matter what engine it uses. What matters is to have the airframes ready, along with sensors, radars, missiles, etc - and then put on whatever engine is used as of now, while developing the one that is "ideal" for later.

Also the development of J-31 is interesting and I believe one should use the same philosophy there. Accept the J-31 ASAP and start building that along with J-20.

Well, according to Yankeesama, Russia can only supply us a handful of AL-31FM1 for the J-20A, and the J-20A now solely relies on the WS-10B.

So the production rate of the WS-10B is now becoming extremely crucial before the WS-15 being ready, otherwise most J-20 would be grounded even with Russia's supply.

 

[Deino]

Well, according to Yankeesama, Russia can only supply us a handful of AL-31FM1 for the J-20A, and the J-20A now solely relies on the WS-10B.

So the production rate of the WS-10B is now becoming extremely crucial before the WS-15 being ready, otherwise most J-20 would be grounded even with Russia's supply.

But that would imply that this recent image showing the WS-10B-equipped J-20A is already older - if not months - and not a recent one ?

Is there any info available when this image was taken?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

But that would imply that this recent image showing the WS-10B-equipped J-20A is already older - if not months - and not a recent one ?

Is there any info available when this image was taken?

According to the CCTV military experts during the interview of the fall 2016, the J-20 got the domestic engine, but not the WS-15. Although the development of the WS-15 is running smoothly, it still needs some time.

So these WS-10B on J-20A could be taken from the end of 2016 at the earliest, or maybe few months ago, but it is very possible that the pic is not the most recent one.

And CAC and Shenyang's Liming factory have reached the agreement of the deepening the cooperation, which can be translated into the agreement for the mass production of the jet engines for both J-20 and J-10.

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2411408-1-1.html

 

[Deino]

According to the CCTV military experts during the interview of the fall 2016, the J-20 got the domestic engine, but not the WS-15. Although the development of the WS-15 is running smoothly, it still needs some time.

So these WS-10B on J-20A could be taken from the end of 2016 at the earliest, or maybe few months ago, but it is very possible that the pic is not the most recent one.

So we have no confirmation that this prototype already flew ... or better to say it is unlikely yet and also no LRIP or even serial J-20s were delivered with the new engine?

And CAC and Shenyang's Liming factory have reached the agreement of the deepening the cooperation, which can be translated into the agreement for the mass production of the jet engines for both J-20 and J-10.

https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2411408-1-1.html

Could this be a hint that finally the Block 03 J-10Cs will get the WS-10B?

Deino

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

So we have no confirmation that this prototype already flew ... or better to say it is unlikely yet and also no LRIP or even serial J-20s were delivered with the new engine?

The previous J-20 showed in the public didn't have all identical engine nozzle either.


Maybe this one is the WS-10B with the non-stealth nozzle?

While this is the AL-31FM1.

And this is the first WS-10B with the jagged(stealth) nozzle.

 

[Deino]

The previous J-20 showed in the public didn't have all identical engine nozzle either.
Maybe this one is the WS-10B with the non-stealth nozzle?
...
While this is the AL-31FM1.

Really ??? I know we had this discussion already much too often and I still don't agree. For me they are all the same and I think I can differ between a typical WS-10- and AL-31FN/FM-nozzle.

Anyway that's a lot and I can't wait to see that bird 2021 in the air.

Deino

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Could this be a hint that finally the Block 03 J-10Cs will get the WS-10B?

Deino

Or maybe the WS-10A1/2 for the J-10C, since the WS-10B is a fourth gen aircraft that is going to be exclusively powered by the J-20.

BTW, the decision of using the WS-10B was made in the early 2016, and it was mentioned by the CCTV military experts in the late 2016.

So clearly these CCTV military experts also know some inside information.

Really ??? I know we had this discussion already much too often and I still don't agree. For me they are all the same and I think I can differ between a typical WS-10- and AL-31FN/FM-nozzle.

Anyway that's a lot and I can't wait to see that bird 2021 in the air.

Deino

Yes, but all the AL-31 engines from both Salyut and Saturn never show any silver nozzle except the black ones.

Many production units of the J-20 also show the black nozzle, so these engines are clearly AL-31FM without any doubt, but the J-20 during the public event or parade could have used the WS-10B albeit with a non-stealth nozzle, and the jagged one is the first stealth nozzle we have seen so far.

Because the silver nozzle doesn't look like a traditional AL-31F either, and the AL-31F we saw on the J-20 looks clearly different.

If the jagged nozzle of the prototype 2021 is also longer than the nozzle of the regular WS-10, then it can pretty much confirm my speculation that the previous silver nozzle belongs to the non-stealth WS-10B.

 

[grey boy 2]

Is this....??