Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Figaro]

J-10 is best example. The J-10A design is optimized for AL-31 engine especially the air intake. When J-10B first being introduced, it could fit both AL-31 and WS-10, everyone was asking why haven't they started mass production of J-10B. Then came J-10C with final addition that will go on full mass production.

The same can be said for J-20 as further changes will be made especially when WS-15 is perfected with potential for TVC being explored. To fill the gap, they'll build maybe in smaller hundred J-20 with WS10 tuned up saving budget for revised J-20 with more capable WS-15 that is likely to be far different from present J-20.

3D TVC is confirmed for the WS-15 ... even the J-20 with TVC WS-10 is entering production later this year. The TVC has been explored extensively for at least two decades now by the Chinese.

 

[Deino]

3D TVC is confirmed for the WS-15 ... even the J-20 with TVC WS-10 is entering production later this year. The TVC has been explored extensively for at least two decades now by the Chinese.

Since when is the "J-20 with TVC WS-10" confirmed? So far it is a rumour ... a quite reliable one but again; as long as I don't see it, it remains unconfirmed.

 

[Figaro]

Since when is the "J-20 with TVC WS-10" confirmed? So far it is a rumour ... a quite reliable one but again; as long as I don't see it, it remains unconfirmed.

The presence of both CMC Vice Chairmen attending the demonstration of the J-20 TVC was confirmed. The rumor was that the J-20 with TVC WS-10 will be produced this year. Either way, this is the closest we get to confirmation.

 

[dbc]

3D TVC is confirmed for the WS-15 ... even the J-20 with TVC WS-10 is entering production later this year. The TVC has been explored extensively for at least two decades now by the Chinese.

J-20's needs thrust vector for high altitude maneuverability and not for turning fights but it will get a lot of pilots killed. This is a common misconception TV was added to the F/22 for short take off and high altitude maneuverability, at 50,000 feet control surface all less effective. The delta-canard design in particular are handicapped at high altitude without TV. But you will lose 10% of engine thrust as a consequence of adding a TV nozzle.

 

[azesus]

Another big god Puffinus剪水鹱said TVC is for taking maneuverability load off from canard because using canard too much increase RCS from all that moving around forming bigger angle deflecting radar, all TVC does is helping climb rate, for now canard is perfect fine for maneuverability
https://www.zhihu.com/people/wang-xiao-hui-50-34

 

[kungfugymnast]

3D TVC is confirmed for the WS-15 ... even the J-20 with TVC WS-10 is entering production later this year. The TVC has been explored extensively for at least two decades now by the Chinese.

The J-20 sure needs the TVC. Having a gun in future is ideal too, better than not having. WS10 TVC with maxed out 32,000lb engines are adequate for the J-20 carrying air to air missiles in air engagement.

 

[PeacefulWar]

J-20's needs thrust vector for high altitude maneuverability and not for turning fights but it will get a lot of pilots killed. This is a common misconception TV was added to the F/22 for short take off and high altitude maneuverability, at 50,000 feet control surface all less effective. The delta-canard design in particular are handicapped at high altitude without TV. But you will lose 10% of engine thrust as a consequence of adding a TV nozzle.

The 10% loss happens only when the nozzle is bent or all the time?
I suppose there is no thrust loss when it's straight?

 

[kungfugymnast]

The 10% loss happens only when the nozzle is bent or all the time?
I suppose there is no thrust loss when it's straight?

My country flies the Su-30MK with TVC, using it is like turning OD off in 90's cars based on demand. The thrust loss only happens when turning and banking. However turning it on when flying straight would drain some energy due to changes on exhaust nozzle, designer expects you to go dogfight so the mode goes to maneuverability rather than picking speed.

For J-20, designer might change the configuration to high speed maneuver rather than dogfight tight turn. Or they could come up with 2 different modes for its TVC.

 

[Figaro]

My country flies the Su-30MK with TVC, using it is like turning OD off in 90's cars based on demand. The thrust loss only happens when turning and banking. However turning it on when flying straight would drain some energy due to changes on exhaust nozzle, designer expects you to go dogfight so the mode goes to maneuverability rather than picking speed.

For J-20, designer might change the configuration to high speed maneuver rather than dogfight tight turn. Or they could come up with 2 different modes for its TVC.

The downside comes more from the added weight of the TVC nozzle than the thrust lost, because this only occurs in specific flight regimes (as you mentioned). But IIRC, it appears Shenyang's current multi-axis TVC system has incorporated significant weight reduction techniques from one of the academic papers I saw a while ago. It is clear the Chinese have put a very high priority on TVC; otherwise they would not have purchased the Su-35 or conducted the extensive research they did on this.

 

[wulff]

The presence of both CMC Vice Chairmen attending the demonstration of the J-20 TVC was confirmed. The rumor was that the J-20 with TVC WS-10 will be produced this year. Either way, this is the closest we get to confirmation.

i didnt know the TVC WS-10 had been installed on a J-20. I thought it was only the black-nozzled WS-10X.

Do we have any photos of the TVC WS-10 on J-20?

 

[Figaro]

i didnt know the TVC WS-10 had been installed on a J-20. I thought it was only the black-nozzled WS-10X.

Do we have any photos of the TVC WS-10 on J-20?

No pictures unfortunately but there were many reports of TVC be tested on the J-20 as far as 2 to 3 years ago. But the gathering of the CMC Vice Chairmen a couple weeks ago to see the J-20 WS-10 TVC was confirmed and it is said this version will enter production this year.

 

[Deino]

...But the gathering of the CMC Vice Chairmen a couple weeks ago to see the J-20 WS-10 TVC was confirmed ...

Again, ... confirmed by whom?

 

[Figaro]

Again, ... confirmed by whom?

Numerous sources such as Pupu and the guy who leaked the J-10B TVC test back in 2017 ... and several others. These sources are the closest to "confirmation" we will get besides an official source (which is impossible) or pictures (which is also very difficult to come by). But the fact numerous credible sources said this should give credence to this development. Besides, it's been known that TVC has been tested on J-20 for the past 2 to 3 years ... it makes a lot of sense for them to be finally be produced this year.

 

[wulff]

Numerous sources such as Pupu and the guy who leaked the J-10B TVC test back in 2017 ... and several others. These sources are the closest to "confirmation" we will get besides an official source (which is impossible) or pictures (which is also very difficult to come by). But the fact numerous credible sources said this should give credence to this development. Besides, it's been known that TVC has been tested on J-20 for the past 2 to 3 years ... it makes a lot of sense for them to be finally be produced this year.

thanks figaro.

OT:
And if you dont mind me asking, what is this stuff the other chinese members here say about you being ethnically Indian? and "undercover indian" lol. Don't get me wrong, i value your commentary, and I always though you were chinese-american. But I noticed some messages in this thread which are somewhat confusing. Or are you indian-american??

 

[Figaro]

thanks figaro.

And if you dont mind me asking, what is this stuff the other chinese members here say about you being ethnically Indian? I though you were chinese-american. So why they saying this?

I cannot guarantee that I was not Indian in my previous life