Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[LKJ86]

Totally different as J-10 is a 4th gen fighter and AL-31F and WS-10C are similar in performance.

AL-31F maximises performance of J-10 whereas WS-10 limits aerodynamic performance of J-20.

J-10A and J-10S are 4th-generation fighters, while J-10C a 4.5th-generation fighter.

 

[UKBengali]

J-10A and J-10S are 4th-generation fighters, while J-10C a 4.5th-generation fighter.

I have no idea why you are bringing in J-10 into this argument.

Speculated 180 KN WS-15 with low-bypass ratio will greatly improve aerodynamic ability of J-20.

It will be able to "supercruise" at speeds approaching Mach 2 like the F-22 and be far more agile as well.

Simply J-20 is at a massive disadvantage to F-22 till it gets the WS-15 engine.

 

[LKJ86]

I have no idea why you are bringing in J-10 into this argument.

Speculated 180 KN WS-15 with low-bypass ratio will greatly improve aerodynamic ability of J-20.

It will be able to "supercruise" at speeds approaching Mach 2 like the F-22 and be far more agile as well.

Simply J-20 is at a massive disadvantage to F-22 till it gets the WS-15 engine.

1. The engine is not everything.
2. Nothing is perfect.
3. Weapons are just tools and consumables.

 

[Deino]

Oh well ...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295403141421101056

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295361493207257088

 

[obj 705A]

One of the posts on twitter (by an Indian I assume) said those are just for delivering a message, even though personaly I don't think they are for delivering a message.. if there is any message to be delivered then it would be "these two J-20s are enough to take out the 5 Rafales you recieved".

 

[Figaro]

I have no idea why you are bringing in J-10 into this argument.

Speculated 180 KN WS-15 with low-bypass ratio will greatly improve aerodynamic ability of J-20.

It will be able to "supercruise" at speeds approaching Mach 2 like the F-22 and be far more agile as well.

Simply J-20 is at a massive disadvantage to F-22 till it gets the WS-15 engine.

Not necessarily true ... the J-20 is underpowered relative to the F-22 but not severely underpowered. The F-119 has a thrust of 155 kN. Meanwhile, the most recent WS-10 variant thrust is roughly the same as that of the 117S, meaning over 142 kN of thrust. Since the weights of the aircraft are roughly comparable, the J-20 is only off by a mere 26 kN of thrust (13x2). A 180 kN WS-15 would then give the J-20 significant aerodynamic performance over the F-22 ... having said this, I think it would be pretty overkill tbh. A F-119 thrust class engine is more than powerful enough for a twin engine heavy air air superiority fighter like the F-22 or J-20. A 180 kN engine would be more targeted towards a single engine fighter than something like a J-20 IMO.

 

[Figaro]

While on this subject, there are additional WS-15 developments from Pupu. He basically states that current vanilla WS-15s have a thrust of slightly less than 16.5 tonnes.

He then goes on to say that there is no problem in developing a 18 tonne (~180 kN) WS-15, only that it will be in the future as part of an improved variant (cites the evolution of the AL-31F).

 

[UKBengali]

Not necessarily true ... the J-20 is underpowered relative to the F-22 but not severely underpowered. The F-119 has a thrust of 155 kN. Meanwhile, the most recent WS-10 variant thrust is roughly the same as that of the 117S, meaning over 142 kN of thrust. Since the weights of the aircraft are roughly comparable, the J-20 is only off by a mere 26 kN of thrust (13x2). A 180 kN WS-15 would then give the J-20 significant aerodynamic performance over the F-22 ... having said this, I think it would be pretty overkill tbh. A F-119 thrust class engine is more than powerful enough for a twin engine heavy air air superiority fighter like the F-22 or J-20. A 180 kN engine would be more targeted towards a single engine fighter than something like a J-20 IMO.

The actual thrust of F119 is classified and is likely to be more than 156kn.

The USAF states 156kn+ in the public domain and we can be fairly certain it is higher than that.

Also it is a low bypass engine which gives around a 0.7 dry/wet thrust ratio compared to about 0.6 for 4th gen engines like WS-10X series. A high dry/wet thrust ratio is critical for good "supercruise" capability.


Make no mistake, the WS-15 will be required to allow J-20 to aerodynamically compete with F-22.WS-10X is a severe hindrance to J-20 performance.

 

[Figaro]

The actual thrust of F119 is classified and is likely to be significantly more than 156kn.

The USAF states 156kn+ in the public domain and we can be fairly certain it is a LOT higher than that.

Also it is a low bypass engine which gives around a 0.7 dry/wet thrust ratio compared to about 0.6 for 4th gen engines like WS-10X series. A high dry/wet thrust ratio is critical for good "supercruise" capability.


Make no mistake, the WS-15 will be required to allow J-20 to aerodynamically compete with F-22.WS-10X is a severe hindrance to J-20 performance.

We do not have any evidence of the F119 being more than 156 kN. You can argue that the thrust to weight ratio is higher than publicly stated (maybe over 10) but the thrust should be in that range. As I have stated earlier, a 156 kN engine like the F119 is more than sufficient to power twin engine stealth aircraft like the F-22, J-20, or Su-57.

 

[UKBengali]

We do not have any evidence of the F119 being more than 156 kN. You can argue that the thrust to weight ratio is higher than publicly stated (maybe over 10) but the thrust should be in that range.

Do you really believe the T/W ratio of F119 is only 8:1 from the weight of engine and public domain thrust figures?

US has a massive interest in hiding the true capability of the F-22 and no-one apart from the US even knows what it's supercruise capability really is.

 

[Figaro]

Do you really believe the T/W ratio of F119 is only 8:1 from the weight of engine and public domain figures?

US has a massive interest in hiding the true capability of the F-22 and no-one apart from the US even knows what it's supercruise capability really is.

Once again I said they could have increased the thrust to weight ratio by lowering the weight of the engine. But the truth is we don't know whether that 7.95 figure is incorrect. But I do believe the reported thrust figure of the F119. A near 160 kN engine is more than enough to power the F-22. The reason why the F135 has much higher thrust of around 190 kN is because it is a relatively large bypass ratio aeroengine (which inhibits super-cruise capabilities) meant for a single engine fighter. Even the designer of the WS-15 himself wrote that the thrust requirements for fourth generation twin engine fighters (e.g. F-22, J-20, Su-57) is between 150 kN to 160 kN while the requirements for single engine fighters are between 170 kN to 180 kN. Go figure.

 

[UKBengali]

Once again I said they could have increased the thrust to weight ratio by lowering the weight of the engine. But the truth is we don't know whether that 7.95 figure is correct or not. But I do believe the reported thrust figure of the F119. A near 160 kN engine is more than enough to power the F-22. The reason why the F135 has much higher thrust of around 190 kN is because it is a relatively large bypass ratio aeroengine (which inhibits super-cruise capabilities) for a single engine fighter.

Like I say information like maximum engine thrust is likely to be classified, as with this information and guessing it's weight, would allow competitor countries like China to work out it's aerodynamic performance quite accurately.

USAF only really stated 156KN+ and never revealed it's top supercruise(just stated Mach 1.5+) so that maybe is telling us something.

 

[Figaro]

Like I say information like maximum engine thrust is likely to be classified, as with this information and guessing it's weight, would allow competitor countries like China to work out it's aerodynamic performance quite accurately.

USAF only really stated 156KN+ and never revealed it's top supercruise(just stated Mach 1.5+) so that maybe is telling us something.

Fair enough but I'm just taking issue to your statement that the J-20 would need a 180 kN WS-15 to be competitive with the F-22 aerodynamically, which simply is not true. A 180 kN engine would be on the same level as the F135 PW-600 (for F-35B) and only 10 kN less than the F135 PW-100 (for F-35A/C). Even if the F119s thrust was underreported, it could not possibly be even close to 180 kN as that would be the territory of the high bypass and much newer/improved F135 engine.

 

[UKBengali]

Fair enough but I'm just taking issue to your statement that the J-20 would need a 180 kN WS-15 to be competitive with the F-22 aerodynamically, which simply is not true. A 180 kN engine would be on the same level as the F135 PW-600 (for F-35B) and only 10 kN less than the F135 PW-100 (for F-35A/C). Even if the F119s thrust was underreported, it could not possibly be even close to 180 kN as that would be the territory of the high bypass and much newer/improved F135 engine.

I never said the WS-15 needs 180KN to be competitive with the engine in F-22.

That number just comes from it's speculated specs that have been on the internet for 10 years or so.

 

[azesus]

J-20 only needs an engine of 117KN to match with the F-22 aerodynamically because delta canard design is 25% more efficient